This podcast is inspired by a number of conversations I've had with clients and online where I've witnessed a lot of frustration and distress that all had the same, "I know this stuff" variety. People who are like, I read The Way Out. I've taken a course with Dr. Schubner. My back pain went away for years after reading Dr. Sarno, but I can't do the same thing with X symptoms. Or I should know better. This is totally understandable and one of the most insidious obstacles to healing. It's the knowledge vs. embodied learning conflict. Knowing and understanding can be two very different experiences. What our brain needs to help us rewire our chronic pain is new experiences (but using this lens of neuroplasticity). I share some ways of getting into a curious state instead of a shaming/blaming state.
If this episode has been helpful for you, please let me know on my instagram post dedicated to this episode.
(If it's not posted immediately when this drops, please be patient, I'm probably sleeping)
[00:00:00] Welcome to the curiosity cure podcast. I'm your host, Deb Malkin, master certified life coach, body worker, hypnotist trained in pain reprocessing by the pain psychology center, queer elder, fat human on planet earth here to help you evoke the power of simple neuroplasticity techniques rooted in shame free curiosity.
[00:00:29] So you can feel more better. more of the time in the body you have today and build the rich, full life that you want to live. A quick disclaimer, this podcast is not a replacement for medical care. I am here to provide insights and techniques that can compliment your healthcare journey, but always consult with your healthcare provider for personalized advice.
[00:00:57] Hello, my feelers and healers, is it okay to call you that? I love it cause it's kind of cheesy. To be honest, I'm kind of cheesy and for so long I think that I had like an inner cringe because I wasn't cool and I wanted to be. I'm really a dork. Star Trek, Doctor Who, a musical loving dork. And I really love that I enjoy things that I enjoy so thoroughly.
[00:01:28] And I'm laughing because at this year's Grammys. I knew Tracy Chapman, Joni Mitchell, and Annie Lennox, and I was like, amazing these are the Grammys for me. Where the old is new. Welcome to today's episode, hopefully it's going to be a brief podcast. I know some of them have been kind of long, at least they're not Huberman Lab long. But today I'm going to talk about belief and willingness and the avenues or obstacles to quote unquote doing the work.
[00:02:00] So some parts of pain reprocessing requires belief. Pain science education, which is part of the way that we help build belief that this approach works. Some of that is cognitive learning and understanding. We tell stories about clients experiences, our own experiences. We show information about FMRI studies, the Boulder Back Pain Study, Dr Sarno's work, which happened before there were any imaging to be able to watch what's happening in the brain in real time. Stories about the guy with the nail in his boot or the guy with the nail in his head, all the people with nails and all the different parts, either experiencing incredible pain when there is no tissue damage or experiencing no pain when there is tissue damage.
[00:02:53] So a lot of these stories in pain science education are there to help lay a foundation for understanding a new relationship between the mind and the body that's not based on Descartes.
[00:03:07] Some parts like the somatic practices, they don't require belief to work, but they do need willingness , curiosity and a quality of spaciousness. When I think of spaciousness, I mean, like a loosening of our perception are loosening of thinking that there's an order to things like I do this and then this happens and then I do this and then this happens or the sense of expectation and belief of what is going to be happening next. That's what I mean by spaciousness is leaving open some room for let's just see what is going to happen. We just don't know.
[00:03:49] And self directed neuroplasticity exercises don't require belief, because neuroplasticity exercises are about changing neural pathways in the brain. So you can't change any of that brain stuff without doing them. Just knowing that there are exercises isn't enough. It is an experiential process. So we need to be experiencing it, not just knowing it cognitively or understanding that there is something called neuroplasticity. You could do these activities and not ever hear the word neuroplasticity and not even know this is what you're doing and you'll still experience a change.
[00:04:35] So that's the difference between belief and practice. So some of those self directed neuroplasticity exercises might be doing the physiological sigh, doing tapping, bilateral stimulation. There's a bunch of self hypnosis techniques that we can do, and those are about interrupting that habituated neural pathway, interrupting and redirecting it.
[00:05:03] What would you be willing to do if the goal was just to play, it was just a practice, it was just to be curious, was just to notice that you're traveling down one road and you're like, Hey, that's not the road I want to go down.
[00:05:19] You know, how do I get onto the other road and just pausing for that moment and thinking, what is it that I can do to shift this state? Right now in this moment, and then picking something. And this is where perfectionism is not your friend. It's not about picking the exact right thing. It's not that at all.
[00:05:41] Self directed neuroplasticity is literally about noticing you're going down a certain path. And this is metaphoric, but also this is the neural pathways in your brain, right? So going down a certain path and you're like, Hey, I don't want to go down that path, setting up some kind of barrier, some kind of detour, right? If you're on a road and there's a detour sign, you take a different road. You don't just keep going. We've all seen that movie where the people keep driving past the detour signs and then they like end up driving into a lake or something. So we're taking that moment to create our own detour, but the detour is then the activity. There's not the right pathway to go down. It's the interruption of the habituated process of traveling down a pathway unconsciously.
[00:06:33] There are conscious and subconscious barriers to the work. And those include active disbelief, almost a desire for it not to work. I don't mean that in a conscious way per se. I think this is because our subconscious doesn't like change because it's destabilizing. Having a relationship to pain is at least somewhat predictable. And I noticed that there's an identity piece that can get really triggered if one's pain is gone. Like, who will I be without this pain? Who will I be without thinking of myself as someone with chronic pain or suffering from chronic pain or a warrior against chronic pain? You know, it doesn't all have to be negative. There's some kind of internal fortitude that we have to fight against some kind of pain or symptom.
[00:07:27] So there's an identity piece in there that unless we start to begin to imagine, ourselves so far beyond that pain that we know who we are without it, and it could even just be in glimmers. We don't have to have a fully formed sense of self to be able to have experienced change.
[00:07:46] But sometimes if you're noticing that there is this kind of disbelief that continues or extends far beyond any kind of evidence or knowledge or experience or even willingness like that might be something to explore. Who am I? Who can I imagine being? What would my morning be like if I wasn't organized around pain?
[00:08:10] Again, it isn't necessarily conscious like you're doing this, but it's your subconscious working to support a consistent sense of self. So much of our experience of the world is based on perception. Our subtle subconscious relating with our sensory world, coming together and creating the experience that we are expecting to have.
[00:08:32] This podcast is inspired by a number of conversations I've had with clients and online where I've witnessed a lot of frustration and distress that all had the same, I know this stuff, quote unquote variety. People who are like, I read The Way Out. I've taken a course with Dr. Schubner. My back pain went away for years after reading Dr. Sarno, but I can't do the same thing with X symptoms. Or I should know better.
[00:09:00] When I hear this from my client, I gently stop them and I ask them, how do you feel when that is your primary belief? Usually their answer is frustrated, angry at themselves, angry at their body, shame or fear. And it's pretty clear right there that just knowing something, just learning it cognitively does very little on its own. We need to embody the work, leaning into feeling things differently. Sometimes the work is to just let go of whatever it is we believe should be happening in this very moment. That's how we interrupt those habitual pain behaviors and update our brain's predictive code.
[00:09:47] So if what you can do is turn that "I should know" into something useful, then you will start to be wiring in a different response and having a different mind body experience. When you hear yourself say, I am so frustrated because I know this already, pause for a moment and ask, okay, you think you should know this already. If you knew it. What do you think should be different? Maybe your answer is, I wouldn't be suffering right now. Maybe this stuff doesn't work for me.
[00:10:22] And in that moment, I want you to get super curious. Can you actually relax and ask your mind? Okay, I hear you say you think it should be different than it is because of the knowledge you acquired. What are you noticing in your body when you think that thought? And then for every answer say, Oh, that's curious. Tell me more.
[00:10:48] If I was supposed to get out of pain, it would have worked by now, often said in the first month of getting this new information. Then I might ask, let's imagine that it worked. What would you get to believe about yourself? What are you noticing now and how does that feel? And then keep going with asking curious questions. And as you do, keep breathing and keep relaxing. Keep relaxing and keep breathing and see what happens. You can even leap ahead and just imagine the final part. Okay. It's working. What's different for you now? What are you doing differently? What's different in your life? And see if you have any kind of shift in perception. Are you feeling more relaxed when you've stopped shaming yourself?
[00:11:40] In an upcoming episode with my hypnosis teacher, Melissa Tiers, she referred to curiosity as a state. And I really support this idea. It's an orientation to any thought, feeling, perception, or sensory input. Hmmmmm, what's going on here? If you notice your body reacting in a positive or negative way, saying again, hmmmmm, what's going on here?
[00:12:07] And I like to even say it slowly and broken up that way, because it reminds me that I can slow down. Hmmmmm, what's going on here? And ask that with a smile and a volcano full of love for yourself. I had one client that I had them imagine putting on a sherlock Holmes hat and holding a big magnifying glass. There are playful ways to embody this sense of curiosity. And if we can imagine ourselves experiencing things curiously with fun, with delight, with I don't know, something weird. That also is a neuroplastic process because that's a different behavior than your traditional pain behaviors.
[00:12:57] And again, no shame for anyone who clings to their negative belief that nothing is going to work. That habituated thought pattern probably shows up in more than one place. I know that's something I've observed with myself. It helps me to see this as a pattern rather than a part of my identity. This is the time when we need to generate the most love.
[00:13:21] I remember a consult I had one time with somebody who is extremely well versed in pain reprocessing, but she had zero conviction that this would work for her. My heart sank when talking to her, I asked her curiously, what do you think the odds are of you getting well? And her response was, I don't think it's possible, like zero.
[00:13:45] And this was a while ago. If we had that conversation today, I would have handled that very differently. But in general, I never talk anyone into working with me. Or giving me the responsibility to hold all the hope. And I thought she's just as much an expert in this as I am. And if she doesn't think she can get better, I don't think she will. But now I would have focused more on the disappointment and fear and just how hard it is to be in that place. Just how much of a heartbreak that is to not know how to build that bridge from knowledge to embodiment. Some of my failing is that is my job to help lead a client through that journey. But I think with her, I was like, I don't know that I have anything to teach you.
[00:14:40] And I think I was really working on like, well, the knowledge is what creates the change, but the knowledge is the foundation for change. The knowledge itself doesn't create anything, unless you have that willingness, that belief, that curiosity, the ability to hold yourself when things are hard and to practice letting go.
[00:15:06] I do hope that she has gone on to work with somebody who can help her. For me, it was so startling to be on a consultation with someone who was so convinced by their inability to overcome their symptoms in the slightest way, because usually those people just don't come for consults.
[00:15:24] And I do get it. Even for me and my cohort of mind body practitioners who live and breathe this all the time. We get moments where it's so hard to even imagine anything feeling different or better. And one of the things that I believe, the more I studied the brain and how it works is that there is very little that is truly unchanging.
[00:15:44] We are changing. All the time. The work we do in mind body coaching is to make the unseen, unwitnessed subconscious patterning conscious ,so that whatever self protective under the hood beliefs and behaviors that are keeping us safe can be replaced by actual safety and empowerment.
[00:16:13] And so the first step is to slow down. The second step is to become aware of your present state. The third step is to befriend the fear, not just in your mind, but in your body, hand on heart, hand on cheek. Lately I've noticed some back tension and I've been reimagining it as a supportive hand on my back, holding me, giving me a sense of stability and that's changed it and I didn't even realize that it was gone until just now when I mentioned it. The fourth step is to do something different. Engage in some kind of neuroplasticity activity, tapping, dancing, singing, humming, shaking. Putting on a song and swaying, redirecting your attention to everything that's not this that you don't want to be experiencing, not in an avoidance way, but in a zooming out and zooming up, taking in more of the world around you than just that one experience that you want to be different. And then next fortify yourself with pain recovery stories, podcasts, your own past experiences of change and let yourself feel the openness of possibility, not the, why isn't this working for me? What's wrong with me story, but the, Hey, they have a brain and a body. And I have a brain and a body and what's similar? What can I adopt, practice or believe could be true for myself.
[00:17:46] And then don't forget basic self care practices like you deserve to feel better.
[00:17:54] What's 1 percent better for you? Would that be not Googling symptoms? Would that be putting down the phone, earlier in the evening and getting more sleep, would that be putting on a meditation as you go to sleep, whether you like meditation or not really, but you know, not to fight against it. We don't need more internal fighting, but almost like having something to occupy your mind that feels supportive. That's not maybe a true crime podcast, but just something that takes you away. Would that be eating regular meals or snacks and not waiting until your body is screaming at you for nourishment? Like we don't need to be doing anything perfectly to feel better. That's not the price of admission.
[00:18:43] In fact, perfection is the obstacle to healing. It will never be perfect. And that's perfect. Becoming adaptive, flexible, curious, and joyful, even in the midst of a mess can really help.
[00:18:59] If there's one thing that you'll take away from today's podcast, that you think is helpful. I want you to hop on my Instagram for this episode and share that with me. I really want to know. Or let me know how you have loosened your grip on all or nothingness or believing you're uniquely broken and unhealable. I really want to hear from you.
[00:19:23] And if you are ready, to go the next step from being a self learner and self healer. If you feel like you're stuck in that place where you're like, I know all this stuff, but you're having difficulty applying it to yourself, then I invite you to a curiosity call. I invite you to work with me.
[00:19:44] I think one of the things that I'm really excellent at is helping people, not just in a cookie cutter way, but in an incredibly personal, unique, special to you process because it is your mind, your body, your experiences, your coping mechanisms. There is a positive intention for everything that is happening to you, it may not feel that way, but the subconscious is creating your experience for a reason. And I don't mean in that way of like, everything happens for a reason kind of way. I don't know that I believe that, but I believe that there is an inherent wisdom in our mind and body, or at least a learned practice that when we start to get underneath it and loosen it, start to pull on those threads that it does unravel and we can begin to replace it with practices that again, interrupt that pain cycle. Again, help us move towards feeling more, better, more of the time and figuring out what it is that will help you feel enriched in your life, giving you back things that you have left behind, or that you want to be achieving, whether that's moving more, whether that's just leaving your house and feeling the sun on your face or the air on your skin, being able to take in that experience of feeling in a way that expands your sense of well being.
[00:21:23] Like that is a fantastic starting place. If that's the kind of difference that you want to have this year, I really want to work with you. Hop on a curiosity call, let's talk, see each other face to face. And let's figure out what we're going to do. Thank you so much for listening today, and I will see you next week.