This week's episode is an interview that I did with Natasha and Maria from the podcast Making Work Fun. I was so excited to talk to them because so often my clients have chronic pain in conjunction with stressful jobs, or find the idea of trying to work while also experiencing chronic pain impossible. Let's face it, work often has a lot of pressure, demands both internal and external, as well as complex social landscapes that can be challenging to navigate. How we deal with our physical body at work can be a trigger for ongoing pain. Learning how to attune and tend to ourselves in these environments can help and change is possible. On this podcast we unpack how approaching pain in a light and joyful way can be incredibly helpful and healing. And how pain management actually has parallels to other challenges in our lives, including work drama. If work and pain and concurrent experiences for you, I hope that you have a listen. And also follow their work. Links below!
This week's episode is an interview that I did with Natasha and Maria from the podcast Making Work Fun. I was so excited to talk to them because so often my clients have chronic pain in conjunction with stressful jobs, or find the idea of trying to work while also experiencing chronic pain impossible.
Let's face it, work often has a lot of pressure, demands both internal and external, as well as complex social landscapes that can be challenging to navigate. How we deal with our physical body at work can be a trigger for ongoing pain. Learning how to attune and tend to ourselves in these environments can help and change is possible.
On this podcast we unpack how approaching pain in a light and joyful way can be incredibly helpful and healing. And how pain management actually has parallels to other challenges in our lives, including work drama.
To get in touch with Maria:
Book a free consult call: restovergrind.com/work-with-me
Check out the mini series on tackling people pleasing and perfectionism to heal from burnout: restovergrind.com/free-mini-series
Email: info@restovergrind.com
Instagram and TikTok: @rest_over_grind
To get in touch with Natasha:
Instagram: @natashatekeste
Website: natashatekeste.com
[00:00:00] Deb: Hi everyone, this week I am sharing with you an interview that I did with Maria and Natasha from a podcast called Making Work Fun. Amazing. I wish that I had that podcast to listen to all those years ago when I was working for other people. I think that would have really helped me. We jump into talking about pain recovery and how it has parallels in our life, including work drama. So we really get into how to be a human being, in a human body in sometimes a work environment that's not really set up to take care of that. And what we can do in our own experiences to make changes. So I hope you enjoy. Thanks for listening.
[00:00:49] Welcome to the curiosity cure podcast. I'm your host, Deb Malkin, master certified life coach, body worker, hypnotist trained in pain reprocessing by the pain psychology center, queer elder fat human on planet earth here to help you evoke the power of simple neuroplasticity techniques rooted in shame, free curiosity.
[00:01:19] So you can feel more better. More of the time in the body you have today and build the rich, full life that you want to live. A quick disclaimer. This podcast is not a replacement for medical care. I am here to provide insights and techniques that can compliment your healthcare journey, but always consult with your healthcare provider for personalized advice.
[00:01:46] Natasha: Alrighty, everyone, welcome back to the podcast.
[00:01:48] Marie and I are both here today and we are super excited because we are interviewing Deb Malkin, who is a pain coach. And both of us are just super excited. Happy to be here to have you on the podcast. Maria and I were talking about this privately beforehand, because we were, um, we put a call out for some interviews and you, your name came to mind and we were both like, yes, we need to, we both follow you on Instagram.
[00:02:14] We're just so enthralled by your work and I think what it drew me to wanting to have you on the podcast was I feel like you have a really light, joyful personality. Approach to pain recovery and those things almost feel like contradictory terms. And so I am just so happy to have you here to pick your brain on this topic.
[00:02:35] So I'll hand it over to you. If you could introduce yourself, that would be great.
[00:02:38] Deb: Sure. Thank you. Um, so my name is Deb Malkin. I am a chronic pain recovery coach, uh, and hypnotist and general life coach. Uh, and I'm a former massage therapist. And also in a previous, previous life, I owned a plus size vintage and clothing store.
[00:02:59] That's really great.
[00:02:59] Maria: So this is everyone. This is Maria. This is, I'm so excited for multiple reasons. First, this is like the first time Natasha and I are interviewing someone together. So this is like super exciting to me. And also I've been following Deb, your work for a long time. I like myself struggle with chronic pain and your work has been like so helpful.
[00:03:16] So I literally, I told you that before we started recording, I'm kind of like starstruck. I've been following you for so long. It's amazing. So thank you so much for being here. Um, tell us a little bit about how you decided to niche into pain coaching. I mean, you mentioned the massage background, but what sort of what brought it all together?
[00:03:35] Deb: So for me, I got into massage when I was in my forties, um, and I'm a bigger person and, um, you know, so I started kind of learning everything about the body and helping other people and it brought me so much joy. And then I was dealing with some recurring knee pain and, um, my kind of standard practices weren't really helping.
[00:03:58] I was studying biomechanics and, uh, you know, and I had my own. Process of like, you know, working with deep tissue work or cupping or whatever. And I was like using all my tools and it wasn't helping. And I had a friend of mine through coaching had talked about using the curable app. And, uh, so I was like, you know, I got nothing to lose.
[00:04:22] Let's just check it out. And it. Taught me something that I did not ever learn in massage school, which is that pain is a decision by the brain based on an assessment of more than just what is happening inside your body so that there is a whole relationship to fear and, um, emotions and thoughts. And. I started working with the app, and I kind of got the sense that, like, oh, there's a, like, safety is the is the foundation of this relationship.
[00:04:58] And the 1 thing that I know about myself was, like, I was really trying to, like, attack the pain and get rid of it. And it was like, my approach was very intense. And there was no softness. There was no gentleness. There was no, like, listening to my body. It also felt very high stakes because my work is physical that, like, I was like, I don't have time for me pain.
[00:05:21] Right? Like, and also. There was a personal identity piece, which was like, I really believe, you know, that like larger bodies can be healthy and can move. Well, and like, you know, it's kind of hard to be in pain and feel like I'm giving this message and it's not feeling authentic. Um, so I got onto the app and I did some of the, like, they have some meditations.
[00:05:49] They have some. Pain science education piece, there's a bunch of different parts to it. Um, and then later that day, I went home and I took myself for a walk and usually when walking, you know, I'd be very, like, concerned about my knee pain, but what I did instead was take myself for what I call a safety walk and I just.
[00:06:11] Changed my relationship to the sensations that I was having, and I started this conversation with my knee and my knee actually was really like sassy. It was a kind of a bossy teenager because I was like, Hey, me, we're gonna like, find how this feels good. And my knee is like, you are so mean to me. Like, you are just trying to like, you know, boss me around almost like.
[00:06:38] And I was like, oh, you know, because you get surprised when your body parts talk back to you. Um, so we started this dialogue me and my knee as I was taking a walk in my neighborhood. And by the end of that day, I felt. I think, like, 80 percent less pain. I also stopped all the what. What we call pain behaviors, I stopped all the pain behaviors too, which was the constant checking obsessing and my biomechanics training really also got me thinking about like alignment and like aligning my femurs and my knee pits and all the things.
[00:07:14] So I stopped all of that. I stopped this kind of like fixated body attention. And I just was like, we're going to focus on safety. And then I woke up the next day and I didn't feel any pain. And I was like, that is not supposed to happen when you're 50 years old and fat and had knee pain for a while. It's not supposed to just like magically go away.
[00:07:40] So I, then I was like, I have to know everything about this. And I read a lot of books and I've studied with, um, people like Dr. Howard Schubner, who is a. leading physician and educator in this field. And, and he had a hands on training with a PT named Charlie Merrill, who also became my mentor and teacher.
[00:08:06] So I just dove right in. Cause I was like, Oh my God, as a massage therapist, I have been kind of doing it wrong when I am only focused on like tissues, muscles, bones, ligaments, tendons, and missing this whole emotional piece.
[00:08:23] Maria: Oh my God. I'm, I'm obsessed with this whole story and I wanted to jump in because like I, like I said, I've been struggling with chronic various types of chronic pain for a while now.
[00:08:34] And last year I had like a really interesting experience where I went to physical therapy for like one specific thing. I had like some hip pain and I came across an extremely good physical therapist, like she, unlike others in the past who are like, okay, you have hip pain, we're going to just do hip exercises.
[00:08:50] She was like, no, this is all connected. Like your headaches. And you're like plantar fasciitis and your hip pain are actually all connected. So we're going to like work on the whole body. So I loved that. But initially, like, I think she just like many professionals in that field had that approach of like, that, like you said, let's attack the pain.
[00:09:09] Like something's wrong. Let's like go full force and do it. And initially, like, it was just wasn't clicking for me because she kept saying things like, I don't know, you're like, muscles are wonky and things like that. And one time I literally, like, had a breakdown in the middle of PT. I just started sobbing.
[00:09:25] I'm like, and she was like, oh, my God, like, are you in a lot of pain? And I was like, no, I'm not in a lot of physical pain. I'm just like, really frustrated and kind of like feeling super vulnerable with all this language we're using of like, something's wrong with your body and it's like wonky and things like that.
[00:09:41] I'm like, And I gave her like a lot of context. I was like, I've been spending years. Working on, like, healing my relationship with my body and trying to get away from, like, dieting and trying to, like, come to terms with how my, you know, how my body functions and all of that. And so it just is very triggering to just hear constantly how, like, how wonky my body is.
[00:10:01] And she was like, oh, my God, like, I'm so sorry. I just didn't even realize I'm doing this. She's like, I'm just so used to, like, saying things like that. I didn't realize how it's going to land. And so she, like, completely changed. Her approach and how she speaks about it. And like, we've made a ton of progress together since then, but like, I just wanted to share that because it's like, uh, yeah,
[00:10:19] I love that.
[00:10:20] There is a concept in pain science. There's well, two concepts. One is like nocebo and placebo, right? So any medication out there that they, you know, companies want to create and put on the market, it has to perform better than a placebo. And a placebo is a, innocuous substance that people can take that creates a positive response.
[00:10:43] And so that just, there's a lot of evidence that our thoughts and our feelings and our emotions and our beliefs about something creates our experience. And some of that is because our brain is a predictive organ. It's a little bit ahead of us. It's like assessing and based on past experience, giving us the experience that we are expecting to have not consciously.
[00:11:07] Obviously, it's like not a jerk. It's just kind of like, that's how the body functions. Because it's metabolic, metabolically conservative, we can't assess everything in real time in this moment. It's all based on past experiences and kind of like concepts heuristics. So there's a lot of interesting evidence that like sham, uh.
[00:11:31] Knee surgeries, you know, where they just, like, make openings and they're not doing actual surgery, like, performs just as well as actual knee surgeries, or maybe even better. I have, there's a lot of different studies. So, what your medical providers say and how they say it. Matters because those are these, you know, deeply held beliefs.
[00:11:56] They kind of get into our subconscious and inform our assessment of what's happening in our bodies all the time. So if you have a doctor that's just like, you're never gonna get better or you have so much arthritis and it's only gonna get worse with age, which is what somebody told me, um, you can't ever imagine.
[00:12:17] Things getting better as you age,
[00:12:22] Natasha: I just want to jump in and say that, and I don't know if any of our listeners feel the same way. Are you Maria, but like, I'm just getting goosebumps as you were talking about the body in such, um, in a way that is so soft and like loving and tender. And I just feel like that is just so resonating with me on a physical level being.
[00:12:44] It's like, my body was like, yes. This, this too, like me too, because I think a lot of us, and I think a lot of our listeners are like Marie and I, and function in our brains a lot of the time. And that is the part I think society wants us to function in and encourage us to function in. And we just kind of accept as the most important part or the biggest part or the loudest part, but our body is there.
[00:13:13] And it's our responsibility to kind of find that silence and listen, like, to, to let ourselves pause and really hear what it's talking to us about and what it wants to say. So that's what I'm, like, noticing just as we're having, like, As we're pausing and having this time where we're essentially like committing to, you know, whatever, long to talk about the body and the pain and our relationship to the experiences that we're having in our body.
[00:13:37] Yeah. I also have a question and I'm kind of curious, you mentioned in your experience, and I think this is probably like, you might see this in your clients as well, that like safety is part of the conversation. Safety is a really important part. Like, what do you mean by safety in the body? And like, how can our listeners go about finding that in their approach to chronic pain recovery?
[00:14:04] Deb: So safety is like a easy word and it is very complex because it means so much, right? So there's the internal safety. There's actual physical safety, right? So if you put your hand on a hot stove, your hand is going to hurt because that is your body saying, take your hand off the stove and it's doing that.
[00:14:25] It's queuing you before there's tissue damage. So this is the predictive part of the brain. It's sending you a message and it's saying do something right now. And that's what it wants you to do, right? You don't want to just be like, I wonder what's going on as your skin is melting off. That's kind of graphic.
[00:14:47] But, um, so there's always this conversation. Some people think of the subconscious as the body. There's, you know, there's a lot of different frameworks for it. But there is the safety that we're trying to assess. Is like, physical and emotional and, uh, internal and external, and there are different words for this, like, sciency words, like, interception proprioception, neuroception, all these kinds of words.
[00:15:18] So, the body has no susceptors, which are different kind of sensors in the body that sense. Temperature, pressure, and chemical responses. So say somebody, I don't know, farts, uh, that would be like, and you notice that that's a chemical change in the environment around you. And then depending on your relationship with the environment.
[00:15:44] the smell or the fart or the person or whatever, um, you are going to have a different relationship to it. Like if it's your dog,
[00:15:53] Natasha: I have a toddler. And so our relationships with farts are so different around here because he's like just like, It's like really funny to watch him discover his own body and when he farts he just like makes this face of like shock sometimes like he didn't expect that and it's just a very silly relationship but I love that you kind of said it depends on your relationship with that.
[00:16:14] Yeah
[00:16:16] Deb: because your body like it might be like oh that's gross but it's not going to be alarmed. Right. Your relationship to the, both the fart and the person farting, right, the softness, the, the sweetness, the, like, you know, people have old dogs and old dogs fart all the time, but you're like, oh, but I love you, right?
[00:16:35] So there's no alarm bells ringing in the body. That's telling you like, this is dangerous. Right? And so that's how our. Body is, you know, that's the, the relationship part, the role between the thinking and the emotions and the body's nociceptors, the like, sensing of what is happening in the environment and because the brain's job is to keep you alive.
[00:17:02] The brain's job is not to, like, make you happy or give you a good life. It is literally like, I am doing my job if you are alive. Yay. Good job, brain. So, some of that is how we have sensitized ourselves to our environments, how our environments have sensitized us to threat and danger, or, and that can be like, Criticism that can be like, you know, how we feel in a group, like, those can be our attachment styles.
[00:17:30] This can be our relationships, you know, so there's, it's complex in that sense, but the idea is basically like, your brain is always assessing your internal and external world and trying to keep you safe and. And pain is a very powerful activator for doing something for, you know, for taking action. It's a very important cue.
[00:17:59] And another thing about pain, chronic pain, per se, is it, it shifts into a different section of the brain. So it moves into the learning section of the brain, like, if it's like pain that was acute, and then it In some ways, it's almost like we keep subconsciously practicing it and then the brain's just like, oh, yeah, this is what's supposed to be happening now, which is why we can unlearn pain when, when, like, if there was an injury when it's healed, you know, um, so safety is a felt sense.
[00:18:37] It's not necessarily a thing in and of itself, because different people feel safe or unsafe in different experiences. And so it's very highly personal and we, and it's something that we can grow, evoke, build on, discover. And sometimes that involves discovering what not feels not safe feels like and starting to soften around that.
[00:19:07] And that's where that inner conversation, right? The part that you were reflecting on Natasha, where we're like, It's, we're developing this very loving conversation, this very loving approach to our bodies, rather than thinking of our bodies as, um, you know, as our enemy, you know, it's very easy to think when, when things in our bodies aren't working the way we want them to, it's very easy to be frustrated or angry or feel betrayed or just feel like so confused and depleted that we don't even know how to get out of what we're experiencing.
[00:19:44] And because so much of this information is, like, highly medicalized, it's very easy to just start, like, go down the Dr. Google route. And then you're kind of basically just making yourself so and so and so afraid, because usually people are not, like, looking and researching and being like, Oh, I bet it's nothing.
[00:20:05] No, we're going to find what we're looking for, which is like the most scary thing ever. And actually here's a story about how our medical providers can help us. Um, I had this chiropractor that I loved in California and he, you know, I'd come in and I, I was a body worker. I knew all this stuff. Sometimes when you know a lot, it's like not great.
[00:20:30] Cause then you're like, well, this muscle and this attachment and this thing, and you've got this whole picture of the body and you're like, get very fixated on what's wrong. And he would just be like, you got stuck bone itis. And like, first off, that's just hilarious. To be told by a medical provider, you have stuck bone itis, but also it really contextualized for me that like, I'm just a human being and a human body.
[00:20:59] And sometimes things don't feel good. And like, it's not a problem. It's not a disease. It's not a disorder. It's not doesn't mean something about my future, you know, and then we were just able to attend to whatever, but he really dissipated the fear that I came in with and that is a very adept problem.
[00:21:18] Provider who is both tending to your actual physical need, but attending to the emotional need inside, which I feel like Maria is like your P. T. should be paying you because that's what you did with that conversation is to tell that physical therapist. Hey, what, what's not happening here is my emotional safety is not being facilitated, fostered.
[00:21:43] And, you know, brought into this process, so I'm glad that she was able to listen to you.
[00:21:50] Maria: Yeah, no, that's, that's also true. I want to hear a little bit more about, like, the practical aspects of bringing joy and ease into pain recovery, because, like, hearing you talk, as Natasha said, it just feels so, like, light and good in my body.
[00:22:06] But then I know from personal experience, like, chronic pain, Stuff is, can be so cyclical, right? Like, you have a period when you're like, oh, feeling great, and then you try to go out for a walk and everything hurts again, and it can be like, in those moments, so frustrating. You're like, what just happened?
[00:22:23] Why are we back here? So, if you're in that moment, How do you move through that with more joy and ease?
[00:22:32] Deb: Yeah, that's such a great question because sometimes one of the things that I ask my clients to do is like try to separate the physiological experience from the emotional experience and just notice what feels harder.
[00:22:47] Um, because sometimes our body is like, if we stop, if we don't have that onslaught of intense emotional, um, pain, we actually, like, as we keep walking or keep moving, we can notice that it changes. And then all of a sudden what felt bad, like 10, 20 seconds ago or a minute ago, uh, changes. So we need to get out of our way sometimes and like, let our body just like be our body and like have moments where it's like, not always like optimal.
[00:23:22] Um. And some of it is just recognizing like, then what that fear is about, right. And learning how to be light and playful and curious. Um, so I always start with teaching people and I notice practice, which is that kind of neutral, curious observer that's lighthearted, that's not judging, that's not jumping into fear and catastrophe, but, and even the one that's able to notice.
[00:23:55] Hey, I feel afraid right now. I noticed my brain is spinning a mile a minute. I'm already thinking about like, oh, I feel this way now. How am I going to feel later? Oh, I can't do all these things. I won't be able to go on this date or do this thing. Right? So we just want to like, make some spaciousness. But bring in this awareness piece and the, and self loving and lightness, one of the foundations of pain, reprocessing therapy, which is a thing that you can go study is positive affect is a piece.
[00:24:33] One of the foundations of it and positive affect just means like smiling. Like, it just kind of it's not quite happiness, but it's like a positive approach. So it's this quality of knowing that this moment. Will change. And when we, when I teach people pain neuroscience education, that is also a foundation.
[00:25:02] So we're working in this larger construct of understanding and believing that, uh, pain is not just caused by tissue damage, that there is an internal conversation and that's what we're navigating, um, and that you can recover. People recover all the time from chronic pain, doesn't matter how long they've been experiencing.
[00:25:25] It doesn't matter how intense it is. So some of that is just like, starting with those building blocks of like, you can get better because it's very hard to get better. If you believe that it is impossible for you at the same time, you don't have to be like, in full belief, right? We're, we're having kind of an experiential practice and we start with relating to the body.
[00:25:49] differently and trying to create these like spaces of safety, noticing not pain, you know, tending to our emotional self, um, and seeking out like kind of playful and positive sensations on purpose and really letting those settle and feel good in the body. Right? So if a lot of things don't feel good, what does feel good?
[00:26:12] How much time and attention can we, like, put, place there? Can we grow that inside of our soma? For a while, when I was really struggling, like, I would just, like, huff coffee beans. And just be like, I really love the smell of coffee beans. Like it just, it's delightful. So, you know, I made a little practice that I would spend time doing that because I could control that.
[00:26:40] And I could like, in almost like infusing my body with the good feelings that I get from this sensory experience. So it's a sensory experience. So it's happening inside of my body. You know, in the, in relationship to whatever being is, I don't know, you know, um, so we do, those are practices that we do on purpose and neuroplasticity works through practice.
[00:27:06] So you can't just talk about something you have to experience it. So we create little experiences and then there's a lot of celebrating. There's a lot of laughter. And there's a lot of like, even laughter through tears. Like there's just a lot of celebration that happens. And then that just naturally changes our relationship to something.
[00:27:28] Natasha: I love, um, what you said in particular about this idea that. It's okay when your body isn't functioning optimally. Like, that really broke my brain. Because I think a lot of us think that as soon as our body isn't functioning optimally, something has gone wrong. This is a problem. It's like, bad, an emergency.
[00:27:53] We have to deal with it. Whereas you kind of are just like, I don't know, sometimes you just need to give your body some space to not function optimally. And for me, that really clinked, clicked. Like, there are times that my mind isn't functioning optimally because I didn't have a good sleep. Or maybe I stayed up too late partying with my friends or whatever, you know?
[00:28:10] Like, it's just, or you have a newborn or a toddler, whatever. Like, there are just times when, yeah, you're not functioning at your best, and that is just part of the human cyclical experience. Some days you're really high, and some days you're a little bit lower, right? And I think that we don't expect that of ourselves.
[00:28:29] We expect 100 percent all the time, and that if that's the standard that we think we should be working towards, then how are you negatively impacting the relationship with your body and with recovery, right?
[00:28:42] Deb: Absolutely. I think that sense of permission to be human, to be a mammal, to be an animal, to have variability in our energy and our function and not do what I call like, you know, not catastrophizing and not chronificating.
[00:29:03] Chronifying, chronification, that's the word that I use, which is like assuming that whatever's happening now is going to become chronic. So, kind of like taking this moment and projecting it into the future. And then, Because our projection of the future, which hasn't happened yet, is usually not positive, we get into a very kind of activated fixing mode now, because if we don't fix it now, only going to get worse.
[00:29:32] Like, those are very common narratives that get passed around. And so, but we really can just, it's. When we're really just like, give our bodies permission to be human and just to be like, this is what's happening right now. What is my body trying to communicate to me? Because also when we have a very quiet relationship with our body, like we're always Surpassing, like, overriding its messages, it's only choices to get loud.
[00:30:06] Right? So if you're not getting up and walking around when you've been sitting for hours and your body's like, you know, your hip feels a little wonky, you know, your body's saying, get up. Move around. Uh, you know, that's very simple. You can do it. It's very short little thing. You can just wiggle, do a little dance, put on a song, right?
[00:30:26] It doesn't need a lot from us or your body's hungry or you need to go to the bathroom, right? There's a lot of ways in which we're like, we're focused on something and we're like that focus, which is like an intellectual activity. Okay. Or maybe it's about productivity and work or whatever it is. We think those are more important than what our body is saying to us.
[00:30:48] And then our body is just being like, Oh, you never, you never listened to me and you're not attending to me. And I feel really like, but you want all this. Stuff from me, like you want me to be like perfect and perform without getting any of my needs met. Like, that's a terrible relationship. If you had that relationship with like another person.
[00:31:13] Or even with your boss, you'd be like, this is not great.
[00:31:17] Natasha: We need to end this relationship. I think as you're talking to what I'm almost thinking about is that our body wants to be in relationship with us. So even if it's been years or decades that we've been trying to control it and get it to perform a certain way and been rejecting it, like, you know, I kind of think of our bodies as like a little toddler who's going to just come back and give us a hug and like, wants to be there and wants to like, love us and show up for us and like, always wants to like, work for us.
[00:31:47] Um, so it's not like a be all end all, like it's, there's, you can repair this relationship and you're in relationship with something. who wants to be involved in the relationship too, right?
[00:31:59] Deb: Yes, I love that. I think that's so important. I think we can start to feel very, uh, detached and frustrated with ourselves in a way, almost like, well, I just have to become somebody else.
[00:32:13] And then this problem will go away or I need a different body or my body has to look a certain way, but our body is just like there and it really does. It loves us. If it's like saying, like, Hey, what you're doing is hurting or I don't have enough sleep or I don't have enough of what I need to really function optimally, you know, or I don't love that word optimally, but like, um, to be an equal partnership in this, you know, Relationship, but the body is always on your side.
[00:32:45] Always, always, always, always on your side.
[00:32:52] Maria: I remember and I think that's like, 1 of the things that people teach you to do, like, when you first start recovering from disordered eating and like, body image issues is like, write a letter From your body to you. And it seemed so silly when someone said it, but I was like, okay, fine, I'll try it.
[00:33:08] And it was like the most like touching, beautiful thing. I think I cried for sure when I was reading it. Cause I think literally your body is like, I know you just haven't liked me your whole life, but I've been just here trying to keep you alive and like doing everything I can for us all. Like, Oh my God, my poor body that I've been shading for so long has just been like trying to love me this whole time.
[00:33:30] It was beautiful. Very, yeah, very touching and very sweet. Um, and one other thing I was thinking, like, when you were saying how we're so used to like overriding our own body signals. I mean, I think like literally everything around us teaches us to like override our body. So it's actually for like, I don't know, just diet culture, beauty coach, like all of that.
[00:33:51] It's like, you need to do things to make your body. Function or look a particular way. Forget about what it's telling you. You have to like, follow these like 10 steps and it's going to be okay. And also like that, I think is the more obvious example, but like productivity, like hustle culture to like, just knowing from personal experience, working in an office.
[00:34:13] Being like, you said, just being super focused on a task or trying to get something done or having a deadline. It's all about overriding your body signals, like your body screaming at you. It's like, okay, I have a headache. Cause you've been staring at the screen for 12 hours. I like my hip skirt cause you haven't moved for so long and you're like, just shutting it down or take a pill to make these go away so I can just keep going.
[00:34:35] Yeah. Thank you. As you were talking. Yeah.
[00:34:40] Deb: A hundred percent. And I think the remedy for that, we don't realize is simple, which is like, just take a short break, get up, move around, like, listen, don't be afraid of the headache, but be like, there's something that's, you know, needing, tending inside of me. And so sometimes headaches are often about when we're like, not listening to our internal voice, when we're feeling overwhelmed or frustrated, or our boundaries are surpassed or.
[00:35:16] And so sometimes the, the work there's like two, it happens on two levels, recovery work. There's the, our relationship to the sensations that we're feeling. So tools like somatic tracking, which is just noticing and following the sensations without judgment and without trying to change them. And then the work I do in hypnosis is we do try to change it and we get kind of really like fun and imaginative and weird.
[00:35:41] So I do both of them. Because when we're always trying to change something and we're not letting ourselves just be in it and experience it, we can't really develop the practice of listening. And then the other part is, um, understanding the environment when these things happen. So sometimes it's like, are you always getting a headache at the same time?
[00:36:03] Are you always getting it before a big meeting? Are you always getting it? You know, it's like, what's happening here? Maybe it's a blood sugar thing. Maybe you need to go and stop, you know, like literally our eyes when we're looking at a screen, because the screen is a certain distance from us, our eyes are held in tension for long periods of time.
[00:36:23] And so there are just literally physiological things that are happening that are not a part of our awareness and that are not necessarily emotional, but they're cuing to our bodies. Hey, we need a certain, we're like in this. Fight or flight, we're in a threat situation. So when we have narrow vision and intense focus, our nervous system thinks that we need to be looking out for a tiger.
[00:36:50] So we got to look away. Let your eyes relax. Look, if you have a window, look out the window. Let your eyes, muscles relax, expand your vision, like away from the screen. Just like, take a moment and just expand your vision to either side of you, above you, below you, behind you. Then your body's like, oh yeah, no, nothing is coming at us.
[00:37:15] So there's, there's like lots of different practices. So it's not always about like, uh, you know, unfelt emotions. Sometimes we use the body to help train the nervous system that we're actually safe. There's nothing threatening here. And then looking at like, yeah. Are you stressed out at work? Cause you think you're going to be fired or because you always tell yourself you're doing a bad job or you're not good enough, or that's where the perfectionist comes in and the body feels that, right?
[00:37:45] Maria: Yeah, totally. And I, one other sort of visual that is coming to mind as you're talking, I think like sometimes we have these like. Anchor points in life. I'm going to try to explain what I mean by that. Like, For instance, work is like your anchor point and you're like, judging everything around in your life around, like, how well are you doing at work?
[00:38:04] Like, that's the most important thing. Everything else is kind of secondary. Or if you're like, deep into like, dieting, like, how your body looks and how much it weighs every single day is your focal point. You're like, everything else could be falling apart. If this is okay, then I'm okay. And I've experienced both of these.
[00:38:21] They were coming to mind. And when that's the frame of mind you're in, it's very difficult to like, listen to your body to like, take like everything else is like I said, secondary. You're like, well, forget the headache. Not that important. What's important is that I finished this 1 project that work like, so I don't know that for me, just sort of recovery has been a lot about like.
[00:38:42] Expanding your focal point, like, not having this 1 anchor of, like, only work or only, like, thin body and just actually, like, really expanding and sitting with the discomfort of expanding. Because I think all of it is about control, right? Like, when you have 1 focal point, you're like, well, this 1, I can try to control really carefully.
[00:39:01] But yeah, it's just the visual that came to mind as you were talking.
[00:39:06] Natasha: So, okay, really interesting. I'm actually doing this, um, code certification program right now, and it's on grief. And what we are talking about is that, um, humans don't want to feel powerless. Like, we do everything to try to feel like we are in control.
[00:39:25] And when we're thinking about grief in particular, this certification is about kind of like death and loss through that way and that is like the ultimate powerlessness. Like we can't control when we die, we can't control when our loved ones, like we don't have any control about that. And I think there is an element of this conversation when we're talking with, about our bodies, exactly what you said, Marie.
[00:39:48] It's like, Sometimes I think we hone in on wanting to control our bodies and we're unwilling to accept that there is a certain level of powerlessness when it comes to our bodies. Like, we can't help whether or not we break our leg or our body will shift and change out of our control. In some periods of our life, and just because we age as we grow up and our bodies change, right?
[00:40:16] And I'm going through a season of my life where I'm in a new body now because I birthed a baby, grew a baby, nursed a baby for 16 months. And so throughout postpartum, it's like, I'm starting to like, wrap my head around, like, what is this new body that has different sensations and structurally feels different than the old version of my body?
[00:40:38] And there's so many examples of how our bodies can change throughout our lives like that. And I'm just kind of curious your, this isn't really a question, but I'm just curious, Deb, what's your like thoughts on like control, powerlessness and our approach to our bodies?
[00:40:53] Deb: I have a lot of thoughts. Um, I want to hear that.
[00:40:57] One of the things that I know for myself is when I feel helpless, like there is nobody who can help me or there's no place I can go for help. My, like, if I have any kind of pain or discomfort in my body, it, that will bring it up to a 10. Like, obviously nothing physiologically has changed, except for my relationship to feeling powerless or feeling like I am not, there's nobody here who can help me.
[00:41:26] And I've just been, that's something that I've been doing this work and I have noticed in myself over the years. And I, so sometimes what I'm noticing now is, what that really means is, is a cue for me to ask for help, rather than believing like there's nobody who's here to help me. But that's a deeply, like, emotional, intense experience that expands beyond just my body, right?
[00:41:55] That's about relationships, that's about the past, that's about trauma, like, whatever it is. Um, but it's also my, my body's way of saying, I'm really desiring connection right now. And I, I'm feeling vulnerable, and that is scary, and I think that that is something that makes me kind of like, Not, um, desirable as a human right.
[00:42:22] And so I think like we all have a relationship with death, even if we don't wanna think about it. That's our relationship. Our relationship is denial, um, . And so it, it's, and like the desire to control things to feel powerful, one is, is I think, innate in us. And, you know, I kind of think is only. Worse, because we now are very, like, independent focused and we're not very collective focused.
[00:42:56] Um, so I did lose the thread of my conversation, but I think it's highly tied together. So, a lot of times people are trying to control the sensations. That we're feeling in our bodies. Um, and then that level of, you know, that's just a very powerful experience. If like you're feeling pain and you can make the pain go away.
[00:43:23] Like how amazing is that? It's like the pain is there for a reason. The pain is there to communicate something when it, when it doesn't need to communicate that anymore, we don't need it. So it's not always great to just like, Um, and just do that kind of suppression all the time. So, but learning how to be in collaboration with ourselves.
[00:43:56] Maria: Yeah. What I'm hearing too, is that there really is no. Which to like the perfectionist and like type of brain is very disappointing. There is no like one right formula that you can follow because I think a lot of the time when we start recovery, we're like, tell me the formula and I'm going to follow the steps very closely, but it's so much more about like fluidity and allowing.
[00:44:18] Allowing that space. And it's not like remembering that it's not linear. I'm taking notes as you speak. That's one of the things they wrote down. It's like not linear. Like, it's not like you recover and recover and recover and never goes back. It's all like messy and fluid and sort of allowing for that fluidity.
[00:44:37] Deb: Yeah, being a human is messy. When you really allow that to be true and normal, not just for yourself, like you're a unique person, you're uniquely messy. It's like, no, we're all messy. Um, it's just part of human nature. Um, wait, I was going to say something. Oh, so perfectionism. So if people do this work, there's a lot of different.
[00:45:06] Foundations for pain neuroscience education. 1 of them is Dr Sarno and he was a physiatrist at NYU for many years. And he died, I think, in the early 2000s and he wrote books called, like, healing back pain. Uh, the mind body prescription and another book called the divided mind and the way that he helped people heal their pain most like a lot of it was back pain, um, which was kind of a popular pain thing to have at the time, um, was through a lecture.
[00:45:40] And his books, and so that in and of itself is a foundation for mind body healing. It's like, you know, it's like, if you're anxious, you'll feel butterflies in your body. If you're excited, you know, you'll feel a different sensation. And so he had these kind of personality types that he talked about, and 1 of them is a perfectionist, right?
[00:46:02] So there's a sense of rigidity in perfectionism. And so it's almost, it is this kind of safety, like creating safety by only having one way doing, doing it right. Right. And sometimes that's because those are messages we got from our family of origin or culturally, you know, I think a lot of like first generation people and immigrants, like, you know, there's not a lot of room for mistakes.
[00:46:27] So just kind of the messages that we've gotten about that growing up, um, goes into our physiological experience. And what shows up in our body. So I love learning from him. And when I read the mind body prescription, I was like, I see myself all over this book. And I was like, okay. You know,
[00:46:51] he
[00:46:52] Deb: doesn't know me, right?
[00:46:53] So, but I was like, I, it helped me lean into more belief and the fact that he wasn't doing, you know, he was trained in doing things to with and to people's bodies. But this is what he, this ended up being his life's work based on. Years of studying people and their bodies and help thousands and thousands of people, which was pretty extraordinary.
[00:47:20] So, uh, yeah.
[00:47:23] Natasha: Um, so I recently read the book when the body says no by Gabor Matei and it's really similar to what you're saying is that he had. Um, and he was a medical doctor for many years and then started to notice a trend of personality types and that connection to certain cancers or certain diseases and the one that, um, stands out for me right now is that, um, he talked about people who, um, are diagnosed with ALS and how.
[00:47:54] Traditionally, their personality is just people that are extremely nice, go above and beyond, never ask for help, never say no, like, to an extreme measure. And the examples that he said was, I think there's some sort of test or diagnosis that, um, is done, um, to determine whether or not someone has ALS. And the people who, um, Do this test on like a 95 percent um, accuracy can guess who has ALS or not based on the interactions that they have with these individuals is like, to me, that blew my mind.
[00:48:32] I was like, this is nuts to see that the way that we show up in the world, the personality that we have, whether it's like nature, nurture, our experiences, our culture, our backgrounds influence. The disease that we experience in our bodies, just, it just was like, it's so wild to think about all of these connections that are happening, maybe on a subconscious level that we're not always aware of.
[00:49:02] Okay, so there's, there's one, um, just for a little bit of context for our listeners. Step wrote in a little bit of some responses to some kind of general questions to get the conversation started, and there was something really powerful that you wrote that I wanna read out, and I just wanna talk about it a little bit deeper and I want to not miss it.
[00:49:20] Okay. So you wrote, um, about your philosophies when it's coming to, um, pain relief that learn leaning or learning how to befriend your emotional self is essential so you don't have to go up digging every trauma. but learning to love the parts of us that have experienced hurt is essential. And I just think that was like a really powerful sentence for me to read.
[00:49:44] Like, learning to love the parts of us that have been hurt. I think so many of us have been taught to reject that part or shove it down or not look at it. Like, we don't want to see the parts of us that are hurt. That means we're, we made a mistake. Or, Uh, there was the pain in a relationship or there was something that we did wrong or we feel like, you know what I mean?
[00:50:07] It just brings up so much emotion to think about a part of us that was hurt and I just want to dig into that. I just think that is such a Like learning to befriend that part and love that part of us instead of rejecting us That's so different than how we are taught to experience our lives.
[00:50:23] Deb: I'll say it like this.
[00:50:25] Maybe this will be helpful, right? So going back to that felt sense when we think of I have to reject this part of me
[00:50:31] You
[00:50:32] Deb: Like, what's that felt, what's the felt sense of both rejecting and being rejected. And then if you think, I want to love this part of me, this part that has been hurt in the past, like then what's the felt sense of both giving love and receiving love.
[00:50:53] They're different and they're felt differently in the body. And when we build that ability to love ourselves unconditionally.
[00:51:05] Um,
[00:51:05] Deb: then almost we have more capacity to be, um, to be like, yeah, this thing hurt. Like the, the fear goes down, the internal fear of rejection goes down. And there are studies that show like people, uh, felt less pain after heartbreak because they took Tylenol.
[00:51:28] So there's these internal emotional wounds or hurts. That feeling are felt in the body, and they're very, very real. So when we start with ourselves by at the very least being able to acknowledge what we're rejecting and then figuring out how to choose to, and we can even love the rejector in ourselves.
[00:51:56] Be like, yeah, of course you don't want to feel that. That sucks. Or that sucked them. But like, hey, what if you just sit next to me and we're just going to have this moment where we're like, I hated that. Be like, yeah, absolutely.
[00:52:14] Natasha: I've never heard it phrased the way you phrase that, but like loving the rejecter of ourselves, like literally my mind is blown because the way I'm envisioning it is like you have this like mean dictator in your brain who's like yelling at you.
[00:52:27] And then there's like another layer of yourself that's just like, I get it. I understand why this is how you want to show up. I get that this is just another layer of me that's wanting to help me and protect me and keep me safe. And this is the only way that you know how to do that. And I can just love this part of me too, because this is a part of being a human.
[00:52:50] There's not, it's not just loving that's being a human, there's also rejecting that's being a human. And we can just like meet that with a little hug and with some love and compassion and tenderness. That's so good. Do you have any questions? I would hand it over to you. I'm sure you're on the
[00:53:06] Maria: edge of your seat.
[00:53:08] My brain is completely blown too. I, like, have taken so many notes and I'm gonna, like, re listen to this because this was fantastic. Um, nothing else comes immediately to mind for me. Um, I don't know if you have any other questions or if not, Deb, the last question for you is Is there anything else you want to mention or are there any links or information you want our listeners to be aware of?
[00:53:33] Deb: Sure. Um, I think I wanted to tie it back to, uh, just like mundane pain, like, because I know sometimes when we, there's a lot of talk about emotions and how they show up in the body, but also, like, I am just talking about, like, you have back pain and like, you think your chair is bad and like, you don't sit in a chair.
[00:53:55] In a chair, you can't sit in a car. You're afraid to, like, do these things like we all this work involves all of that. It involves, like, graded, uh, like, graded motor work. So we're doing, like, visualizing, doing activities successfully and then going out into the real world and, like, doing things. And so there's a lot of ways to train the brain.
[00:54:20] to get back to like break the habit of pain. So I wanted to bring it back to like, it's not just like feeling your feelings, which Is really important in an essential component, but there's also just the, the neurological brain training process that, um, can be, uh, about just getting back to the activities that we want to do.
[00:54:47] And also, like, having a greater sense of vision and purpose for our life. Like, who are you when you can sit in that chair? Right? Like, what is different about your life when you can go take a walk and it feels good? You know, so there's kind of like a whole, there is a whole person approach, but it's a very much like, Science informed, brain driven, like understanding how all of these pieces work together.
[00:55:14] Um, but I wanted to to come back and make sure that people actually understood that we, you know, am also just helping people work with the activities that they want to do and that could just be standing at the sink and doing dishes or, you know, getting up and down from a chair. Um, so it's, but it encompasses all of that.
[00:55:36] Right? Um, let's see, what do I want? You were talking about like,
[00:55:43] Natasha: I can I just jump in here and so I went to the gym before this and I've been going to, um, like during my pregnancy, I went to like a pregnancy kind of focused gym. And now I'm doing like postnatal like postpartum. Uh, type workout classes.
[00:56:01] It's the same gym, just kind of, um, different focus. And today, and that's why I'm about 18 months postpartum. And today at the gym was the first time I have run on a treadmill in almost like a year and a half, like basic, no, it would be almost two years, I guess, or longer because I didn't run at all throughout my pregnancy.
[00:56:21] And for a little bit of context is I used to be a long distance runner. I love running. Running has been such a source of joy and like, Mindfulness and meditation and just something that I took a lot of pleasure in. Um, and so not being able to do something like that for a really long time. It was like a shift in my identity and who I was and just and today on the treadmill, like it was so slow.
[00:56:45] It was like short, but like it was. So imperfect, but it was just so cool to just find that little part of myself again, even though it feels different, even though I'm figuring out like my hips and my legs and my structure and my movement, but to like come back to a part of myself, um, There is power in that, right?
[00:57:09] And so it's, it's, and I think what you're saying is like, it's, everyone has their own version of it. For someone that might be, yeah, sitting in this chair or, you know, being able to stand and go to the park, like whatever it is for you. But for me, I had a little kind of bright moment of that today. And it's cool that that came up in this conversation because part of your identity, I think, is how you move.
[00:57:33] And if the way that you move. feels negative or feels like heavy and filled with pain, there's a part of like yourself that you've lost in that. So it is a whole body and brain approach. It's not just one tiny little point in time that we're, I think you're working on with pain recovery.
[00:57:51] Deb: Yeah. Absolutely.
[00:57:52] And I love that you're like getting back to something that you love and letting your and like giving yourself permission for it to not feel like it used to. That's a big part. You're like, it's going to feel like this until it feels different.
[00:58:05] Natasha: Yeah. I didn't understand that. I just, I think I, I, and I feel that is just.
[00:58:12] Life and getting older is I didn't understand that the way I move would feel different. It's not always going to feel the same. Um, and obviously having a baby is a very distinct period of time, a very clear shift. Um, but it. Yeah, and it was cool because it wasn't even something I was planning on doing. I just figured I'd give it a try and see how it goes.
[00:58:33] Like, you know, and that's, I think sometimes part of pain recovery is just trying and seeing how it goes without putting that pressure or the expectation. It's just like, who knows? Let's just see. And if it's not cool, you can stop it and change or do something else. You don't have to, it's not a commitment that you've made.
[00:58:52] That's like an all or nothing, you know, it's not going to predict the rest of your journey.
[00:58:58] Deb: I love, I love everything you said, like the being playful approach and just trying things out and seeing how it goes and like checking in and, you know, giving yourself a high five and just being like, you know, all right, we got 30 more seconds in us.
[00:59:14] Let's try see what happens. Because when we, when we so tightly measure things, and I think, like, some of our trackers don't help us, you know, some of those, like, fitness trackers and all those ways that we're constantly judging ourselves and creating these metrics that, um, you know, sometimes if they feel empowering, that's great, but oftentimes they don't, or they're setting us up with this false sense of, Of, uh, belief.
[00:59:41] So I love that you're just like, so playful and joyful. And that quality came through in the movement that you were doing and in your approach. And so that's how we bring joy to back to our movement and to our bodies.
[00:59:58] Natasha: This was such a good conversation. I feel like I learned so much more about myself and how to approach myself and my body and how to be in collaboration with myself.
[01:00:11] I think that's a phrase that you used and that really, that really resonated with me. So thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to chat with us and just share all of your knowledge and wisdom and everything with our listeners. I know, like, this is just going to be such a helpful conversation for people because you're totally shifting the conversation.
[01:00:33] The way we think about pain, like, I just even have, and I said this at the beginning, having the word joy or ease and pain recovery, like, all three of those words, all four of those words just feel as if they should be in different books, like, not on the same page, in the same sentence. Um, So yeah, I just want to thank you so much.
[01:00:56] And so if our listeners want to check you out, can you let us know where they can find you? We'll have everything linked in the show notes, but you know, where can they, where can they find you?
[01:01:06] Deb: Yeah. So my website is called the curiosity cure. It's a curiosity cure. coach. I think it's the same thing on my Instagram.
[01:01:15] And, um, and then anybody's welcome to just like have a conversation with me. Um, so it's, uh, I'm not that hard to find. Oh, and I have a podcast, duh, I forgot all about that. I have a podcast called The Curiosity Cure, in which I talk about pain neuroscience, pain recovery, my own journey. So you get a really good sense of me, who I am, my approach.
[01:01:40] And um, this season I'm also having some really great conversations with, um, other experts and people to broaden out the understanding. Of how pain works in the body.
[01:01:54] Maria: Thank you so much. I'm obsessed with this conversation. It was so good. Thank you so much for coming on.
[01:01:59] Deb: You're welcome. It was so much fun.
[01:02:02] And I'm so happy that this podcast exists so that people can actually realize like they can change their relationship to, to work. I feel like there's a lot of analogies. Like there's a lot of, uh, commonalities in the two things.
[01:02:16] Natasha: Oh, totally. That's why Marie and I were. What we're thinking about it, right, is like, and a lot, it has shifted my relationship to work, being able to like, talk about work.
[01:02:25] Because I think, I think now a lot of the narrative is like, don't work, just rest all the time. And it's like, no, part of being a human is to work. It's to find pleasure in work. It's to exert energy and effort in doing things that we want to do and finding passions and, you know, putting, yeah, it's not, we're not meant to just rest all the time either.
[01:02:48] It's like we kind of just jump to one extreme or the other extreme sometimes culturally and it's like how do we find balance and balance is different for each and every one of us and it's different throughout the seasons of our lives. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. Um, and we will see you all next week, everyone.
[01:03:07] Deb: I hope there's stuff from that podcast that you found relevant or interesting or intriguing or piqued your curiosity. If so, let's get curious together. I am here for you to help you through this journey. Pain recovery, you don't have to do that work by yourself, figure it all out, start to understand how to relate to your sensations differently, or figure out how to work with stress differently all by yourself. I am here. So book a curiosity call let's have a conversation and see if working together is something that makes sense for you. Thank you.