This episode my client Sophie leads you on her journey out of 20 years of chronic pain. It was her idea to name this podcast Glorious Chaotic Mess. And that speaks to how healing perfectionism can lead to full body healing and a change in relationship with the messages from the body and her mindbody connection. She shares how our work together not only made a substantial difference with her pain but in her life as a whole.
This episode my client Sophie leads you on her journey out of 20 years of chronic pain. It was her idea to name this podcast Glorious Chaotic Mess. And that speaks to how healing perfectionism can lead to full body healing and a change in relationship with the messages from the body and her mindbody connection. She shares how our work together not only made a substantial difference with her pain but in her life as a whole.
[00:00:00] Deb: Welcome to the curiosity cure podcast. I'm your host, Deb Malkin, master certified life coach, body worker, hypnotist trained in pain reprocessing by the pain psychology center, queer elder fat human on planet earth here to help you evoke the power of simple neuroplasticity techniques rooted in shame, free curiosity.
[00:00:29] So you can feel more better. More of the time in the body you have today and build the rich, full life that you want to live. A quick disclaimer. This podcast is not a replacement for medical care. I am here to provide insights and techniques that can compliment your healthcare journey, but always consult with your healthcare provider for personalized advice.
[00:00:56] Today's episode is going to be an interview with my client Sophie and it's long. So I don't even want to talk too much about it, but I'm just going to invite you on our journey. What I will say is that she now does not think of herself as a person with chronic pain. And that's a big departure from her sense of identity and for the actual physical, day-to-day experiences that she's having in her life. So I hope you enjoy. Thanks.
[00:01:30] Do you want to just have a little tiny catch up before we start the actual conversation. I haven't made a plan.
[00:01:40] Sophie: I kind of have a plan, but you should do, you should ask me questions because it's your podcast.
[00:01:44] Deb: Yeah, no, but I'm glad that you have a plan. That's exciting.
[00:01:48] Sophie: I have been excited about this. Okay.
[00:01:50] Deb: Amazing.
[00:01:50] Sophie: My husband's been excited about this with me. He's like, what are you going to say? Are you going to say this bit?
[00:01:55] Deb: I'm so excited that you said yes to being on the podcast. And sharing with people what your experience has been working with me, why you hired me as a mind body coach.
[00:02:08] And I don't know all the things you want to share.
[00:02:12] Sophie: Well, I thought maybe we could start off with talking about, I mean, I was so skeptical at the beginning, right? This was not something I ever wanted to believe in. And I think even for like half the time we worked together, I was very skeptical of it, of the potential for results.
[00:02:31] So I think, I would love to start off and just say this was my chronic pain history, right? Because that was what made me come to you. And then there was a specific event that happened that made me think, okay, I'm going to give this a try, even though I still don't really believe in it.
[00:02:46] So I would love to be able to tell that story at the beginning. Is that okay?
[00:02:49] Deb: I would love it if you told that story because some people, I think, believe that they have to believe and that can sometimes be an impediment. So I love this leading people on the journey through your own skepticism and belief and understanding.
[00:03:07] And how you put it all together. So, yeah, please tell it.
[00:03:11] Sophie: All right. So I had like a 20 year history of bad headaches, neck pain, back and shoulder pain, fatigue, muscle weakness, hypermobility. And I'd been to so many doctors and I think people, I mean, I understand other people with chronic pain to have had the same experience where you, you know, I've been diagnosed with Migraine, vestibular migraine, basilar migraine, cervicogenic migraine, complex regional pain syndrome, fibromyalgia, myofascial pain syndrome, like so many diagnoses that weren't really helpful, and then so many different kinds of treatment.
[00:03:51] So I've tried, um, I tried medications, I tried the old tricyclic antidepressants that they use for pain management. Someone prescribed me gabapentin once, it lasted for about a day, because I was like, well, I can't function. So I've been through so many different kinds of doctors. And I've been through so many different kinds of physical, touch modalities.
[00:04:11] So like I've been to osteopaths and chiropractors and gone to massage and gone to Rolfing and gone to Alexander technique and really, really tried everything. And what would happen is I would, Um, get very excited about something and think, Oh, it's working. It's working. And then like a few months later, I'd be like, no, I'm just having, you know, just as many headaches.
[00:04:31] And I come home from work early and I have to lie on the ground with my head on ice pack to be able to function at all, I sort of spend days in bed or days on the floor. And I think when it was worst, I was losing probably five to six days a month just to being in pain and too much pain to do anything.
[00:04:51] And the other thing that went along with that is that I gradually stopped doing things. I was like, Oh, this is going to cause me pain. I'm not going to do this anymore because, I'm too weak and I can't do it or because I'm too worried that it's going to hurt me. For instance, and this is going to be relevant later, but I stopped like skiing was something I was not a great skier, but I really liked skiing and about 20 years ago, I went to go skiing and I hadn't gone for a couple of years and I was just like, oh, this hurts too much.
[00:05:18] And I'm too worried about what it's going to do to my joints and my neck's going to hurt. And, you know, my, my feet are too floppy. I can't control the skis. I'm not in, you know, and so I remember very definitely, I was like, Oh, I'm not going to be able to ski anymore. I guess I just can't ski. And that happened with so many things.
[00:05:36] Like I stopped, um, you know, going out to dance because going out and dancing was one of the things that would put me to bed with a headache for a couple of days or, so many things that I, that I just gave up doing. So part of your life shuts down and then, you know, you have this other thing.
[00:05:52] And I think this is also common to people with chronic pain, which is that you, you cancel things and then your friends, you just feel like you're being a bad friend and your friends or your family think that you're unreliable. Um, because you're like, Oh, you know, I was going to do this thing. And yesterday I said it would be fine.
[00:06:07] But actually today I have a really bad headache and I can't come. And that's okay. Once or twice, but when it happens like seven times, you sort of let you start to let credibility with yourself. Right. You start to collapse inwards a little bit. And so I think this is how my life had really gone.
[00:06:23] I trumped down. I had my kids late. You know, as part of having my kids, you acquire a whole lot of different kind of, um, pains and physical stresses and things. And I had just decided that my life was just, had slowly just become limited down to this sort of kernel of what it was. And I wasn't getting outside, I wasn't moving, I wasn't, doing anything that required exertion or that made me, or that I was a little bit nervous about.
[00:06:49] I was not taking any risks. And I really just, I really had just sort of shut myself down and my pain was a little bit better than it had been at its worst. And I was probably still spending four or five days a month. You know, there were four or five days a month when I couldn't really function or go to work.
[00:07:06] As late as 2019, I was, there were days when I would wake up in so much pain that I would go to the ER and I would get an intravenous, anti inflammatory that would help me recover faster.
[00:07:17] I would describe my pain as my nervous system being over it, if you had asked me, if I went to a new doctor in the last few years and they said, what's going on with you, I would go, well, here's 150 pages of stuff. But also what happens to me is I think that my nervous system interprets any stimulus as an injury and overreacts and then my muscles clamp down and then I, you know, everything gets sort of hyper slightly out of alignment.
[00:07:41] And then I have pain for a few days until it all relaxes and goes away. But even with that explanation, even with that story in my head, I was so resistant to thinking that there was anything that I could do mentally, that anything that I could think about that could change my experience of that pain.
[00:07:59] And then I had become, I knew you because we were in the same coaching group and you had done a webinar on chronic pain and I'd watched it. And I thought, Oh, I don't really believe in this. I don't think, you know, and there's also this resistance, right? Because if you have chronic pain, the last thing you want is for people to go, Oh, it's all in your head.
[00:08:18] So that I think was a big part of my resistance, like, you know, I, I don't want to think that. And I don't want other people to think that. And so I watched your webinar and I thought you were lovely, but I was just like, it's a bit woo. I don't really believe in it. And then I
[00:08:35] Deb: just have to stop, you thought my webinar was woo.
[00:08:40] Sophie: No, no, no, not your webinar, but the idea that change our pain experience by thinking differently about it that I was really, I did not want to believe that. Sure. So, and my reaction is to be very like, oh please..
[00:08:57] Deb: Not, that's not a problem. I just thought that was funny because I feel like my approach is very science based. I mean, I use a lot of humor, but I don't think of how I talk about things as woo. So I just, I wanted to be like, whoa, but also it's all about perception. What I'm hearing you say you thought that the concept was a little woo was a little far fetched was a little like fantastical, um, to really believe. And I don't blame you because pain is something we experience in our body, and we're really organized to think of a body based solution for dealing with body pain. So, a hundred percent. I understand. And I love that you watched the webinar and that you thought I was lovely. That's nice.
[00:09:52] Sophie: I want to be very clear. I did not think you were woo, and I do think you are very science based.
[00:09:58] And that it made sense. And my reaction that it was where it's mostly about my resistance to, Oh, I don't, I do not want to hear that this is all in my head. Right. And I didn't at that time make the connections that I was going to make later on. Yeah,
[00:10:16] Deb: of course. And of course you don't want to believe that it's in your head. I think there are messages in society that like somehow, and especially women are like faking it, that there's this hysteria, that what you're experiencing isn't real.
[00:10:35] I know that you're not saying that I was saying this, but I always start with people like your pain is 100 percent real and you're not creating it on purpose. That these are these subtle subconscious brain predictive coding that they are just things that happen.
[00:10:53] And then we use this conscious process to unwire that experience. So, I just wanted to jump in, because I can't say it too much too early and too often, but I also understand how you can hear even all of that and still think, oh, my God, I don't want to do this work. Because. I have to think differently.
[00:11:17] And some of that might bump up into some of this, shame, especially this kind of socially conditioned shame.
[00:11:24] Sophie: I had this experience and I could not ignore it. I was at a conference and it was a small group sort of training more than a conference. It was about 30 people and they were very senior people in my field. And it was lecture based and then there was back and forth and there was discussion and it was three days long on the first on the end of the first day, we had a group discussion and I said some stuff and I immediately felt that I had overshared.
[00:11:53] And I immediately felt that I'd overshared, I'd talked too much, I'd used up too much air time, and I felt terrible about it. I felt ashamed and embarrassed and humiliated and I wanted to shrink into a box and go away. And immediately I was sitting there feeling all this stuff. And I'm not terrible at identifying how I'm feeling and, and waiting for it to pass.
[00:12:15] That was a skill that I already had some familiarity with. But I was sitting there feeling these feelings and just, and feeling like I'd gone dark red and sitting in the corner of the room and hoping it would pass so that I could go out for dinner. And I got this intense headache pain. My, it was the same pain I get when I get a headache that puts me to bed for three or four days.
[00:12:34] And I got this really, really intense pain in the back of my head. And I was like, on top of everything, I'm getting a headache and I've got two more days and on top of everything, I'm getting a headache and I'm going to be in bed and I'm not going to be able to focus and my eyes are going to be puffy and I'm not going to be able to string two words together.
[00:12:50] I'm going to have a terrible time. And this headache pain just got more and more intense and luckily it was the end of the thing at the end of the session and we were able to pick up and I grabbed some painkillers out of my bag and took some painkillers and I, um, went back to the hotel. I didn't go to dinner that night and I slept and slept and slept and then the morning I felt okay.
[00:13:08] And in fact, I didn't really have much pain in the morning when I got up. And so that was fine. And so I went through the next day and about three o'clock the next day, we had another Q and a session. And the same thing happened to me. It's like open my mouth and a whole bunch of stuff came out. And it was just in front of these people who I desperately wanted to be.
[00:13:27] You know, I wanted to be part of that group. I didn't, and I was like, Oh no, I've said the wrong thing again. I've said too much. I took up too much time. And again, I got this really severe pain and then I stopped. That stopped me talking. Um, and at that, and then I didn't go and get painkillers because I was like, oh my gosh, I've had this huge emotional experience and I just had this huge emotional thing happen to me right now.
[00:13:55] And I'm sitting here thinking about how terribly I'm doing and my pain happened, and exactly the same thing happened yesterday, and it blew my mind. Right, I had, because what I had for the very first time, I think, was this very conscious connection between feeling and thinking a certain way and getting my pain.
[00:14:14] And it was like, you know what, that is what Deb was talking about in her webinar. And I was like, I cannot ignore that. I've had this experience. It was very, it was a, it was a huge realization. I don't know. You had those moments in your life where you just sit back and you go,
[00:14:30] Deb: Oh,
[00:14:30] Sophie: and then it's like, you have to stare at a wall for three days to make sense of what happened to you.
[00:14:34] Right. It was that big. And so I was like, this is what Deb was talking about. And so I finished up the session and moved on and came back home and went through my life. And I think it was a week or two later that I got in touch with you. And I was like, Hey, I think I want to do your coaching program. Um, can we talk?
[00:14:56] And so we did. So it was interesting because I think at the time I still wasn't super open to it. Like I said, and there were times when we were going through it or I was like, I don't really feel like things are changing for me very much. I think we'd been working together for about six months and I was away with some high school friends for a 30 year high school reunion.
[00:15:19] And someone asked me for some. Panadol some paracetamol. Mm-Hmm. . Oh, you don't call it paracetamol? Acetaminophen. Tylenol. Right. Tylenol. And I was like, okay. Yeah, because I always had painkillers. I always, and I was like, you know what? I don't have them. I, I, I don't even know where they are. I haven't had to take any pain medication for a couple months.
[00:15:37] And I called my husband. I was like, can it be right that I haven't had a headache in months? And he's like, yeah, no, that is right. I don't remember you having a headache for a while. And because it was such a big thing in our lives. And that was when I was like, okay, I'm good. And I remember coming to our next session and telling you about it.
[00:15:53] Do you remember?
[00:15:54] Deb: I do remember.
[00:15:56] Sophie: So it was, um, and, and we can go on and talk about what it was that made the change, but I cannot, I cannot overestimate the impact that this has had in our lives, like it is, it has been huge in our lives. And my husband is a computer scientist and he is the most straight up, like hard science y, physics, maths proof person.
[00:16:19] Um, and he did not believe that this was going to help. And he is very pro it now and he believes that it helps. And every time I go to talk to you, he's like, Tell her I said, thank you.
[00:16:29] Deb: That is so sweet. You're welcome. And also what I always loved about our sessions is that you would come in and you have this, you have this very impish smile and you kind of bring in your skepticism and you're like, this is what's going on and I don't think it can change.
[00:16:51] And then we just start to explore it, especially things around like hiking, moving with your kids, doing more physical activity. Those were things that we really started to unravel. And we, got to tie it together with some diet culture stuff and, and just start to see where these beliefs were built.
[00:17:14] I love that you're talking about that kind of big aha moment, that big light bulb over the head experience, because that is what goes on somebody's evidence sheet. So when we're building the kind of case for neuroplastic pain, we do need those Weird, unlike other times kind of moments, where we're actually watching either the experience or the symptoms get better or get worse or change places or only happen when you're on vacation or only happen on Sunday nights before you go to work or like we start to investigate.
[00:17:55] What's happening and usually people don't think about pain that way. We don't look at pain. We don't get curious about what we're feeling. We're usually just trying to fix it. You know, not feel it get over it. And sometimes even like, what did I do to bring this on? Right? Like, how is it my fault? So that then you can either stop doing that activity or get some help to fix it.
[00:18:21] What I always loved is like, you were game, even with your skepticism. You're like, let's see. And sometimes you're almost a little challenging. Like, well, let's see really what can happen? I don't know. Am I right about that?
[00:18:35] Sophie: Yeah, I think you are. And I think why we worked really well together is that you never really tried to change my mind about anything.
[00:18:43] You were like, well, but what if, what, but is that really true? It never was combative. It never was. No one was ever defending a position, and you weren't ever trying to instruct me, but it was always just a slightly different lens on what I was thinking. And helping me uncover the thoughts as well.
[00:19:02] Like how many times did we, like, I would say something and you'd just be like, well, but, and I'd be like, okay, you know, like we would get there at the same time that, okay, why, why is that thought not right? And I know what you mean, because a lot of my fear of my pain and headaches was about, Oh, I'm never going to be able to X, right?
[00:19:23] I'm never going to be able to go snorkeling with my kids. Or I had this thing about being the kind of outdoor sort of physical exercise mom who could go and do stuff with them rather than sit in the house and read them stories. So my kids are now sort of seven and 10. It's a great age to go out and do things. And I felt like I couldn't, and I wouldn't be able to, because either I'd be in pain or I'd be too scared of doing something that would give me pain.
[00:19:48] We explored a lot of stuff around that and also around this sort of productivity culture. So I think one of the other things that I, I never tried to fix, it never occurred to me that, you know, like staying up all night, three nights in a row to get work done was like not a great thing for my body and not a great thing for my health. So there were some things that I'd never really, explored because I thought like that, that's just normal. That's just what, that's just what you have to do.
[00:20:14] And I think, we got to talk about some other things like how much responsibility I felt for fixing everything around me all the time and being in charge of everything and getting everything done really perfectly. So I think we didn't talk about pain the whole time. In fact, I think probably pain was in the minority of what we talked about.
[00:20:35] Right. And it was so interesting to me how it was sort of the synthesis of all these different things that turned out to be part of how I felt about my pain. The biggest thing for me, the biggest thing that I've taken away and I still do is the idea of being curious about your pain and not freaked out by the pain.
[00:20:52] Right up until we started working together, if I woke up and I had a sore neck in the morning, I'd be like, Oh no, I've got a sore neck. I'm not going to be able to do anything. I'm going to have to cancel that. It's, and you know, and as I'm thinking this, the pain is getting worse.
[00:21:05] And then I'm pushing into the pain and trying to figure out like, how bad is it if I do this? Like testing out all ways in which I could make the pain worse. That's how I used to deal with it. And now when I wake up and my necks a bit sore, I'm like, Oh, I'm going to take it easy for an hour or so this morning and see how I go.
[00:21:23] I'm probably going to feel better after I drink some water and move around a little bit. You know, I literally, I have not had a day in bed. I have not had a day where I've had to stay in bed with a headache for over a year.
[00:21:36] Deb: Wow. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah.
[00:21:42] Sophie: And it's, and I would say the biggest difference is literally that, Oh, Hey, you're there.
[00:21:48] You know, some days I wake up and I'm in a bit of pain and it mostly goes away. Just having that thought as my automatic response to feeling some pain in the morning is a huge change.
[00:22:00] Deb: What I love is, The simplicity of when we shift away from catastrophizing and and kind of like globalizing, like taking a sensation that you have when you wake up in the morning and then turning your whole day, just pre deciding everything based on that 1st feeling, so really inviting you into that curiosity and just being like, let's just see what happens as we get up and move around and, are not afraid of the symptom and really decrease the fear. Give you something else to do besides being afraid, and reacting, it's this very elegant simplicity, because we don't necessarily have the answer, but what you do get from it is like a different way in and and I would say like some of the work that we did do was about this feeling responsible for everything and kind of how much you are holding for everyone and everything and all the the things that you take on because you're like also a tremendously like Powerful person in terms of, like, the way that you create impact, both in your work and in your family and in your community.
[00:23:30] You would just tell me things and I'm just like, you're just the getter doner person. But then that comes with. All of these other, these other parts, those internal pressures that I think, you know, were just kind of like showing up as headaches, showing up as other things, that kind of internal pressure we got to, we got to play with. You got to make some decisions around it.
[00:23:54] Sophie: It was a lot of it was about how, how well things had to be done as well. Right? Like I had this thing that I couldn't, go for a run unless it was perfect, unless I timed it and it was a perfect time and I did the right distance and I was running the whole time and I did this, you know, we really explored a lot around, um, you know, what's enough, what, what is enough in a particular situation and how do you.
[00:24:22] How do you match enough to what you feel up to at that particular point in time? And I think the other thing was this idea that you don't have to be, you know, no one is pain free forever all the time. There are days when you can be, I don't want to say a hundred percent because it goes into that sort of perfectionistic thing, but there are days when you're up here and there's days when you're like 80 percent of up here and that's okay and that it's okay to match what you do to like how you feel that day, right?
[00:24:52] Instead of push yourself to have that sort of super high output all the time. It wasn't that I hadn't, you know. Heard about those ideas before, but there was something about the way that we discussed them, that I was like, Oh, I'm really doing this because I was used to thinking of myself as someone who like never really got to good.
[00:25:11] Right. But actually I feel a lot better about myself now. Like, Oh, you know, actually most of the time I get to good and where I'm putting in all my extra effort is trying to get from good to very good. And sometimes I just don't need to do that.
[00:25:24] Deb: Yeah, I'm trying to think of how to say this. I think that there were some, I'm going to say, logical fallacies, like in the way that you perceived yourself. Sometimes, and that, like, when we were talking, what you would say that you were doing, it was almost like you weren't able to see how much effort and work you put in, how much you were creating, because you were, not reflecting and not able to celebrate and had this sense of perfectionism.
[00:25:59] So just in that dialogue and that, maybe gentle teasing. Like, I think that there was a lot of playfulness in our conversation and in our dialogue. And so sometimes in that, you know, I would ask you questions and you would answer them and I would be like, well, so you did the thing that you said you couldn't do?
[00:26:17] And you're like, Oh yeah. So sometimes it was just about holding up a mirror to all the things that you were already doing, but weren't able to perceive that that's what you were accomplishing and creating and doing in all the ways, particularly around movement, because it wasn't like this ideal, you almost discounted all of the movement that you were doing that really showed you that your body was strong and capable.
[00:26:49] And and so we got to build from that, which is always so great. It's really, really common for everybody to kind of discount the things that we're doing that come easy, especially when we have our sites fixed on the really hard thing that we think is going to be like the identity piece.
[00:27:10] Sophie: And I think that was another 1 of the big changes and the way I would describe it now is a focus on the present and not always striving to be somewhere else. And, you know, you, you grow up, um, we grow up in these achievement oriented families, and then we go into achievement oriented jobs. I was a lawyer for a long time and then I was in the legal adjacent careers and it was very achievement oriented and what's the next thing and what's the next thing.
[00:27:37] And, you know, I would always in my, in my corporate job, which I don't have anymore. I would almost be like. Irritated by the need to stop and celebrate that we've done something because I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm already over, like, we're already done with that. Let's not sit here. Like, we've got something else to do.
[00:27:54] Come on team. Like, let's not celebrate the thing we just finished. Let's celebrate that we get to start a whole new project. Right. Which. Probably one of the ways in which I was not a great manager, right? Um, but you know, it's very much how I approached it in my life. There's always, I'm always planning for something.
[00:28:11] I'm always, you know, what's happening? What's the next thing? What's the next trip? What's the next thing we're doing with the house? What's the next thing I'm doing with work? Um, and I think with pain as well, that was what I was doing my catastrophizing, you know, I was spinning it out to the end of my life.
[00:28:27] I was like, Oh, I'm in so much pain. I'm going to have to cancel everything I'm doing this weekend. This is another way, you know, this is just, this just underlines my thought and assumption that I'm not going to be a great mother and I'm, my, my kids are going to grow up with a mother who lies on the sofa all the time with an ice pack on her head.
[00:28:44] And then I'm going to become one of those old ladies who can't do anything and I'm going to break my hip and then I'm going to be bedridden and on crutches and not able to do anything at like 65 and that's going to be my life and I'm going to have a miserable life. A miserable time. You know, I was still planning ahead. Right. And what I really love about how I approach it now is that there is none of that. There is no future thinking and what I'm doing. It's like, oh, this is what I'm feeling now let's see how the morning goes. And sometimes it sneaks in, sometimes a thought sneaks in, oh, I won't be able to do that thing.
[00:29:21] And I'm like, well, let's see how I go. And there's so far, there's never been a time when I felt bad enough to have to cancel something. There's never been a time when I felt And I, you know, I, this feels like people are going to listen and go, Oh, this is a fairy tale. This is so true. And I'm, and I continue to be blown away by it.
[00:29:43] Deb: I love that because also like 100 percent never canceling things is not really what's required of you. So I, I love that. What I'm hearing you say is that you're actually responding in the moment to your needs and your desires and, and seeing like what's possible for me today and then modulating and having variety and letting yourself be a human being that is different from day to day.
[00:30:16] But that there's always something that feels possible, and that's where I see is instead of living into this kind of future catastrophe where nothing's possible, you actually have an orientation to, well, let's see what's possible. And. If you have like a, an expansive menu to choose from, what I'm hearing you say is that there's always something that feels possible for you.
[00:30:43] I would love to hear some people like recovery stories. And I know that I'm one of those people really benefit from hearing kind of like specifics around what couldn't you do before? And what can you do now? If that's like a narrative that works for you, because I know that you've done some hiking and camping and other things with your kids.
[00:31:08] And so I would love to share that.
[00:31:12] Sophie: Over the Christmas holidays, uh, we went for a month long camping trip. It was our summer. We stayed at maybe six different campsites, campgrounds around, um, New Zealand. And we stayed in a tent. We had to walk probably, I don't know, a couple of hundred yards to the kitchens, to the bathrooms. And I was wearing a Fitbit. So I did get to see that every day I was walking about 25, 000 steps just really even to get things done. But, you know, during that time, we also hiked, kayaked, swam, went out on a boat. I took my daughter horse riding. I did not get on a horse. That is a decision I'm happy with.
[00:31:50] I don't need to get on a horse. Plus. Um, there were really little tiny horses. They were so cute cause she's seven and they had little, Shetland pony type horses. It was gosh, it was beautiful, but I got to take her to go on the horse. And yeah, we just lived very outdoors. We were outdoors for a whole month.
[00:32:09] And I think one of the phrases I had adopted in talking to you is I want to be an outdoor mom. I feel like I'm not an outdoor mother. Like I'm not good enough at doing outdoor things with my kids. And so we did that. And then we came back and I have a cousin who's very into snorkeling and diving. He plays underwater hockey, which is an actual sport.
[00:32:30] Deb: Wow, I've never heard of that sport.
[00:32:32] Sophie: Yeah, he was part of a world champion underwater hockey team. And, but, you know, he's, he's very much at home in the water. And so he, we were going to go snorkeling one day with him. So I bought the kids snorkels, wetsuits, masks, and taught them, went to the pool and got in the pool with them and taught them how to snorkel and then got in the sea with them and taught them how to snorkel in the sea.
[00:32:52] Um, and we did a bit of that. And so I think that my, you know, my, I feel like my outdoor mom cup is quite full. I feel like that story about myself has gone away. Um, along with my story about being a person who has chronic pain. That's not how I think of myself anymore. It doesn't happen.
[00:33:13] So that, that is really, that feels really immensely satisfying. I mean, we're almost at the point where my kids are like, can we just stay home? Do we have to go? And then, um, you know, I spoke to you about skiing earlier and skiing was just something I thought I was never going to get back into. And I just, you know, I'm hyper mobile. I fall over. I just, the last time I tried I could not control my feet, but my kids have really enjoyed the couple of times they've been skiing. So we have an indoor ski field near us. And so for the recent school vacation, I booked them in for a week of lessons at the ski field. And I had to get up every morning and drive them up there.
[00:33:54] And they would ski for two hours and I was watching them do it and I was like oh that looks like so much fun, like I really would like to be able to do that and then when we go to the mountain I could ski with them instead of having to find a group for them to ski with. But I kind of discarded it, because I was like well I did try that one day 20 years ago to put on skis and it wasn't great and I was thinking about it and I was like you know what, that was 20 years ago.
[00:34:19] And since then, I've done so much strengthening work and so much yoga and so much weight training and like, I'm not in the best shape I've ever been in right now, but I think I'm in way better shape than I was the last time I tried to ski. So, I didn't tell anyone Deb, I booked myself a ski lesson for yesterday up at the indoor ski field. So my kids are back at school, my husband's at home. I told him, I don't think I told anyone else and I sneaked off up to the ski field to have a ski lesson. And I fucking skied, Deb.
[00:34:54] Deb: Oh my God. That is amazing. I also love the way that you did it. Like it sounds so delicious and here's a question. Were you willing for it to go badly?
[00:35:08] Yeah.
[00:35:09] Okay.
[00:35:10] Sophie: I thought there was better than even chance that I was not going to be able to do it.
[00:35:13] Deb: And so with that understanding that That it was very possible that you wouldn't be able to do it. You were still willing to go and try. But then what happened? I want to hear more details.
[00:35:30] Sophie: So. I mean, I feel really emotional about this. This is a really big deal for me. I got up there and I talked to the ski instructor who came and one of my concerns was about getting boots that fit because, um, I have big calves and sometimes ski boots don't fit very well.
[00:35:50] And so I solved that problem and got my boots on, got my skis on and everything. And then I was, I, I signed up for a beginner lesson because it's been such a long time. And then the ski instructor came along and I was putting on my skis and he's like, Oh, well, you're not a beginner. And I was like, no, I've skied before, but I haven't skied for a long time and I'm kind of nervous and I'm a bit worried about hurting myself.
[00:36:10] And he's like, Oh, he says, he said, you have the best instructor. I'm the best instructor for you. He was a lovely man. I teach seniors to ski without hurting themselves. So I teach senior seniors to ski and protect their joints.
[00:36:24] So he said, you're not a senior, which was pretty nice of him, but I'm going to teach you. I'm going to make sure that you know how to ski in a way that is going to protect your joints. And I was like, okay, that sounds cool. And you also sound like a person who, if I say I need to stop, you're going to let me stop and you're not going to pressure me to keep going.
[00:36:39] Probably half an hour, and he's like, oh, you're fine. Let's go to the top. So we were skiing up this little baby slope and coming down with a couple of turns. And then he's like let's go up to the top on the rope tow and ski down. And we skied all the way down. And he goes, that's great. You're remembering .
[00:36:52] And there were things that were not perfect about it. Like my feet. My feet and legs ached from being in the boots, not while I was skiing, but while I was resting, I was noticing a lot of aching in my feet and legs and thinking, Oh, my feet feel really weak. And there are a couple of times when I wanted to go and sit down and then I noticed that I was only noticing the pain when I was standing still, or when I was like on the toe up when I was skiing down, I didn't have any pain and I was like, okay, so I'm probably going to be able to keep going with that.
[00:37:22] And, um. There are a couple of times when I felt like a little wobble and how I was coming down the mountain and I would stop and, um, Richard, the, the ski instructor would come over and I said, you know, I felt, I felt wobbly and he's like, Oh, that's totally normal. Here's what you need to do to fix it. This is not, you know, because for me, I was like, this is a me problem.
[00:37:43] I'm too weak. I'm too old. I'm too out of shape. And he's like, this is totally fixable. You need to lean forward and you need to hold your pole this way and then drop that shoulder. Try this. And I'd try it. And I was like, huh, you're right. So we had an hour and hour skiing with him. And then he's like, okay, now you can ski by yourself.
[00:37:59] And he went off to do his other lesson. And then I just skied. And I skied fast and I pushed myself into more than I'd done with him. So I was remembering some old, skiing has changed, skis have changed there's stuff that is different. But I was pushing myself into being able to do some different kinds of turns that I hadn't been, I hadn't done with him.
[00:38:17] And by the end of it, there was this guy who started out at the same time, he had a beginner lesson at the same time with a different instructor. And so he saw me come up with the, for the beginner lesson. And he said to me after, after our two hour session, he goes, you are such a good beginner.
[00:38:31] And I was like, Oh no, I'm not really a beginner. And it, yeah, it was great. And then I had this sort of euphoric experience afterwards where I was like, I cried a little bit and I was like, you know, this is literally something that I told myself that I was never going to be able to do again.
[00:38:48] And I did it.
[00:38:48] Deb: Wow, and you did it. I want to cry.
[00:38:52] Sophie: I'm crying now.
[00:38:53] Deb: If we weren't recording this, like we would spend some time in this feeling and kind of letting it, letting it well up, letting it be present. You know, saying hello and goodbye to some grief, because that's a long time to want something and feel like it's not possible.
[00:39:15] The other part that I love about this story that you're sharing is the idea that it's never too late. That's really important, and especially for anybody who's coming to this work in this 40s and up place. That's such a narrative that we carry. That it's too late. Some of the work that we did was also about looking back and trying to separate our today body from the past.
[00:39:42] Sophie: Worry in my head around booking this lesson yesterday was, I'm not in shape enough, right? I have to wait. I have to wait until I've done more weights. I have to wait until I've lost some weight. I have to wait until I've strengthened my glutes. there were all these reasons in my head for like, I won't be able to do this until, or if I can do this, I'll have to first, you know, if I can even do it, it'll only be after I do all these other things.
[00:40:08] I don't think that two years ago I would have gone ahead and booked that lesson and I'm, I'm so glad I did because, you know, I think I can go and have a few more practices and then I can take my kids up the mountain. I can ski with them. And both my kids are so happy for me when I came home.
[00:40:24] Yeah,
[00:40:25] Deb: that's amazing.
[00:40:27] Sophie: I didn't need to wait. I didn't need to wait until I had the perfect day with no pain and, you know, rock hard. Until I had the body of a 25 year old again, which is obviously going to happen at some point in the future.
[00:40:40] Deb: Oh, of course. Absolutely. Time will just go backwards. I think that point that you're making, which is not waiting, not waiting until. You have these kind of ideal situations, and these kind of ideal set up for taking action. The like impetus to act and to do comes first. Now you have this larger context for how to relate to your body.
[00:41:10] So, even that story about when you're noticing your feet hurting in the boots when you were standing still, I can't imagine the narrative that you would come up with or the experience you would have if your feet were hurting in ski boots before the work that we did. I think you would have stopped.
[00:41:28] I think you would have taken that pain and not be able to extrapolate and be like, Oh, well, but I notice that when I'm coming down the mountain, I'm not feeling pain, and when I'm doing these things, I'm kind of not feeling pain. So it's only when I'm standing still and I'm noticing and that, you know, our bodies, yeah, are talking to us all the time.
[00:41:47] Sometimes they're saying, hey, move around. Sometimes they're saying, get a snack. Sometimes they're saying, go to the bathroom. I love the way that you're now able to listen with more nuance, complexity and also kind of challenging any assumptions like that first hit of assumptions that might come in.
[00:42:08] Sophie: Yeah. And I wonder if that day 20 years ago, if I felt the same, I wonder if what I felt was the same thing I felt yesterday. And then this time I just thought differently about it. Let's see, the most useful thing to me is let's see what I can, let's see what I can do, you know?
[00:42:26] That isn't just happening to me physically either. That's happening with a whole bunch of things, like it's happening with work stuff when someone asks me for something at the last minute and I'm like, Oh, If I have to do that, it's going to take me until four in the morning and then I'm going to, you know, lose all my sleep and I'm going to do all this other stuff and I'm like, well, you know, it's pretty important to me now to go to bed at a reasonable time. So let's see what I can get done in a couple of hours. That is a very useful thing to have in my head for many, many, many occasions.
[00:42:55] Deb: I was thinking about your thoughts about your children, like thinking about the future of your kids, right? I'm wondering if this, well let's see what happens, approach relates to parenting for you.
[00:43:11] Sophie: Yeah. I think with parenting, it's more nuanced because well, you know, with me, I'm, I'm lucky enough to have another parent who's here full time and very invested in a lot of decisions. So we always have to make room for how we both think about these things. But I think definitely there was a lot of if my son games like eight hours a day, he's going to end up living in our basement at 35. We don't even have a basement, so we're gonna have to make a basement. I think there was a lot of that sort of thing going on. If they don't have enough extracurricular activities at six, they're not gonna have anything to put on their CV at 25. Um, I think, I cannot be alone in that kind of, in that kind of thinking.
[00:43:53] So I would like to say that I'm completely relaxed. Um, there are some things
[00:43:57] Deb: I was not, you do not need to be completely relaxed. Like that is not,
[00:44:03] Sophie: I have to be a hundred percent relaxed. I, it is not going to be enough for me.
[00:44:07] Deb: I think it's very unrealistic for any parent to be completely relaxed. Great. So we got to set our expectations appropriately, but I, I love,
[00:44:22] Sophie: I love the idea of being a perfectionist about being unperfectionistic.
[00:44:26] Deb: We could be perfectionist about almost anything, right? So we get to call ourselves on it. See it, notice it and love on ourselves because really just what it means is I want to feel entitled to feeling good. I want to feel good about my choices and who I am as a person or as a parent and as a spouse.
[00:44:47] Sophie: I think that we'll see thing with my kids translates a lot more into not thinking so much about what's going to happen in the future and being like, you are a whole person right here. You're a whole person with valid thoughts and feelings and emotions. And just because I feel like I have this job to prepare you for something years in the future, it doesn't mean that like what you're thinking and feeling and saying to me now isn't valid.
[00:45:11] The present is valuable. I think the present is really valuable. It's the most valuable thing we have. And internalizing that and saying, what is the experience we're having right now? And let's prioritize that over something that may or may not ever happen in the future, I think is a really important part of that.
[00:45:29] So we'll see, let's see what we can do. It is really about that for me in all the situations. It's like what I've got is right now, right here. Yeah. It's very, that's amazing. Very powerful lens
[00:45:43] Deb: Then from that we can bring it back to being a human being in a human body. And just having that relationship with the present moment. What was really fun about working with you also is that you are an incredibly driven person and that you have accomplished a lot. And so, yeah, I saw that little head, that little head tilt, but that's okay. Right. These are, these are my thoughts and beliefs.
[00:46:10] But when somebody has a history of being able to achieve things. It's you can't deny that history, right? We can't ever like take those experiences out of your life and they didn't just happen by chance. They're not just like random things that happened to you. So I think 1 of the things that was really fun is to keep that through line of you being a really powerful creator in your life and then just cutting away some of that extra stress, the perfectionism, the overdoing, the worrying, it's almost like we took a really complicated cake and we actually just made a very simple cake that tasted unbelievably delicious.
[00:46:57] And you're like, Oh, I can make this cake every day. And then maybe every once in a while you make the really complicated cake.
[00:47:04] Sophie: I just think it's translated into so many things, like it's translated into some really, um, big choices about what I'm gonna spend my time on and what I'm not gonna spend my time on.
[00:47:15] It's translated into, um, booking a, a day or a day every month or six weeks where I'm just like, today I'm just gonna go swimming and sit in a sauna and read a book. You know, while the kids are at school. It's a day just for me, it's translated into, um, not feeling so much pressure about housework and having the house all tidy and sort of spick and span and having the garden beautiful.
[00:47:42] These things are a journey, not a destination. I have a, saying with my friend, you know, there are some things in life that are like building a house, which you do once. And then there are some things in life that are like laundry that happens everyday. Um, and so with the things that are more like laundry than building a house, you just have to roll with them.
[00:48:03] Deb: I love that distinction because they're so clear. Right. Laundry versus building a house. If we treated laundry, like building a house, it would feel impossible to build a house every single day.
[00:48:16] Sophie: Right you're never finished with laundry. I think that this is another thing that we talked about a lot, right?
[00:48:21] There are some things that you're never done with this, this concept of the never ending to do list. It's interesting to me because I feel like this work that we did together had so much of an impact on my pain and my body and how I experienced my body and how I live in my body. But it also had a lot of impact in how I lived the rest of my life.
[00:48:43] I learned to think about my pain differently and retrain my response to it. And now I no longer have this, it doesn't have the same impact on my life.
[00:48:52] Deb: I'm wondering how now, not identifying as a person with chronic pain, Like how that's changed relationships in your life. And maybe that's not the right question, but feel free to answer whichever question feels useful.
[00:49:10] Sophie: I think the reason I find it hard to answer is because I can't really put myself back in the old mindset anymore. Right. I definitely feel less like I'm on the, I'm not asking people to commiserate with me so much. But I think the reason I'm struggling to answer that question is because that's a foreign state of mind. I can tell you, I can tell you actually what I think happened to me, but I can't really, really go back and experience how it felt anymore. I think one of the main differences is I don't feel worried about making commitments because I think I'm worried that I'm going to have to break them.
[00:49:46] If I do have to break commitments, I do it without the angst and okay, so here, this is interesting when I used to call people and say, I can't do something because something's come up where I'm feeling sick or whatever. I've had some colds I've had, I have had to cancel things, just not for pain.
[00:50:04] I don't worry anymore that they're like, Oh, she's a big flake. She never turns up for anything. She never meets her commitments, all of that. I feel much more secure in my ability in how I'm fulfilling my role in relationships and less concerned about how people think when I do have to cancel something or change something. And part of that is because there's not that extra load of like cancellation or change that is coming from my pain. Yeah.
[00:50:31] It was interesting because I didn't have to go to my doctor for a long time. And I went to my doctor and he's like, okay, he was re prescribing a whole bunch of other things for me.
[00:50:38] And he's like, oh, okay. And what about your pain meds and your muscle relaxers. And I was like, oh no, I still have stacks. I haven't needed them for ages. And he's like, he's like stop. And you know, we have this, you know, doctors can spend like 15 minutes with you, right? He puts down his pad and he looks over the desk and he says, tell me more about that.
[00:50:57] Deb: Really? Okay. That's amazing. Just to hear that he was curious.
[00:51:06] Sophie: He really was interested and his experience of me has been that I'm in his office every three months going, I need a re prescription of this one and this one and this one. That was interesting.
[00:51:16] Yeah.
[00:51:16] Deb: What did you tell him?
[00:51:17] Sophie: I told him what I'd done. I told him about the work that we'd done. And, um, he said, Oh, I've been reading about some really interesting work. He said pain reprocessing, and so we talked about that for a little while and then after 15 minutes was up. He's just a very good doctor. He's very receptive. He's very open to people who do their own research on the internet and come to him with questions and say, I've read about this and I've read about this and maybe we could try this. We had a great conversation, and it's just been good. And then there are people in my life who aren't so interested, the people who always thought that I was malingering people in my family who are like, Oh, you don't have headaches anymore.
[00:51:51] Well, you probably never really had them. Did you?
[00:51:54] Deb: Okay, well, you're welcome to, ask them to talk to me and I will tell them to fuck off.
[00:52:01] Sophie: I actually feel way more relaxed, I don't need them to be on this journey with me. And I think the biggest thing for me is the change that my family sees particularly, and I said to you about my husband before, my headaches really impacted him because he would have to pick up whatever he was doing, he would have four or five days a month where he had to be in sole charge of everything. We wouldn't be sharing the work like we would normally. And also take care of me and drive me to emergency or drive me to urgent care or, do whatever he, he actually learned massage, like he learned massage to help loosen up my shoulders and neck for me.
[00:52:34] So to avoid headaches, like that's how committed he was to helping me manage my pain. For him to say, and he's very hard science, he was even more skeptical than me. So to have him be like, this has made the biggest change in our lives of anything ever. Yeah. This has been so amazing is, it's huge for me. He notices it more than I do, because you know, your new normal becomes your new normal.
[00:52:58] Deb: Yeah. I do hope that he's still giving you massages. Okay. Good. Just like, right. It's all about the orientation to something. When most of our experience with our body is around managing chronic pain.
[00:53:15] We actually forget that pleasure is a thing and that touch and, you know, can be for other things than just getting rid of this thing that you don't want to be experiencing.
[00:53:27] Sophie: It's actually interesting. You know, now that everything isn't coming to me through the lens of chronic pain, the experience of getting a massage is totally different. Like even just like movement is totally different. Yeah. But I was thinking about I used to go for a massage and I'd be like, I need really deep pressure and firm pressure. And when you really need to work these areas, this is where I'm really tense, but you have to go really easy over here because if you touch, if I get, if you use firm pressure on my neck, I'm going to get a headache and it'll last for ages.
[00:53:57] But even the feeling I used to get, every massage was painful, right? And now even with firm pressure, it's not painful. My back, my arms, my shoulders, it's not painful, but it is like this nice unwinding of tension that I feel without pain being associated with it. And, you know, when I realized that had changed, I was like, what is this weird?
[00:54:19] What is this strange sensation I'm having? This is not what a massage feels like. But it is, it is what it feels like now. It is not that I get a massage on my shoulder and I automatically, you know, sometimes I still feel a little bit of pain. Cause I'll have a tight muscle or whatever, but quite a lot of time.
[00:54:34] It's like this beautiful sort of unwinding and relaxation and sort of a, a crackling release of tension that happens and there's not a, there's not a feeling of pain associated with it. And it's great.
[00:54:47] Yeah. I love that. In some ways that's like reversing the twin peaks model, right?
[00:54:55] Deb: So the twin peaks talks about how the body builds this space between the sensation of pain and tissue damage and so when, when you become more and more and more sensitized, that space becomes bigger and bigger and bigger and you start to feel pain sooner and sooner and sooner, right? Your body is so hyper vigilant. So I love that this is kind of a reversal of that where there's so much safety that your body's not anticipating that touch to be painful, and so then you're just able to receive. And it also, and I think that you have a lot of self trust built in around what you do when you feel something that feels uncomfortable, that it's no longer scary.
[00:55:45] Sophie: Yeah. And this idea that I used to have that I, if I felt pain, I would like, I would like, okay, let me see how bad the pain is. So I'd push into the pain. I'd be like, if I move this way, does that make the pain worse? Oh, yeah. And let me move this way some more. Oh, that's even worse. And that's even worse. And now I'm like, that does not seem like a great response to feeling uncomfortable. Right. I'm going to move in a way that makes the pain feel better. Look at that.
[00:56:10] Deb: Yeah, that's my old, like, poking the bruise kind of thing with people. I'm like, okay, we all have that impulse to poke the bruise and be like, does it still hurt?
[00:56:23] But, you know, a lot of times the answer is yes. There's a logic to it, but you get what you look for.
[00:56:30] Sophie: And I think the same thing about, um, like movement modalities that require you to push, right. I'm slightly hyper mobile and so I've always Felt very competent at yoga, for instance, I can get into positions, even if I'm overweight, even if I'm out of shape, even if I'm not very strong, I can usually get into a pretzel shape position. Um, and now my mindset is, yeah, but do I want to really, because, you know, sometimes I'll like over rotate my neck and then I would go home and I've had a headache for three days.
[00:56:58] So I think there's a lot going on for me as well about, you know, You know, just because I can, it doesn't mean I should do all this stuff. Um, and so I, you know, I'm choosing. Um, I'm choosing exercise and I'm choosing movement that is about strength and, um, strength and endurance and being able to do functional things because that's what I want to do.
[00:57:24] I want to be outside. I want to do stuff with my family and have this life that involves going outside and doing stuff., I don't need to be able to do a back flip, but I don't need to be able to like rotate my head 180 degrees. Or sit in the Lotus position. Right. And so I think that that's another change as well.
[00:57:43] Like I don't, I'm not going to try and like force my body to do stuff that I don't really need to do every day.
[00:57:51] Deb: Yeah. I think there's this fitness mythology that can creep in where we feel like, oh, we have to have this certain type of body to be able to do X, Y, and Z. These messages are very subconscious and stealth. We're not, Even aware of them necessarily when we're having them, even for myself as a mind body practitioner, I have sometimes the mentality that I always have to be training for something rather than just like doing it. It's almost like I have to be training to take a walk rather than just like taking a walk.
[00:58:28] Sophie: That's that future orientation. I have a sister who's a Olympic athlete. And so that was very not subtle. Growing up the rest of my family was really, really sporty and active and I just wasn't ever. And so that there were those, those were not nuances. That was not a subtle set of messages that was really in your face.
[00:58:49] And there's a little bit of that going on with how we're raising our own kids. And it's interesting to watch. It's interesting every time I feel myself starting to get a little bit anxious to sort of take a step back and be like, let's look at all the different ways many people are raising their kids. Let me not just look at what's happening in my own sort of family of origin. I cannot describe it as anything except it's a lens change that has happened across many, many aspects of my life that are having very, it's just having big, profound effects for me. And I'm very grateful.
[00:59:20] Deb: I thank you. And I am very grateful that you took this risk even without a guarantee I mean, basically taking this experience that you had had at that conference and being like, all right, I know that something can change. Let's see what happens.
[00:59:40] When you sent me an email, we were talking about a glorious chaotic mess. You seemed very delighted that that should be the title of this podcast and I want to know what that means to you.
[00:59:52] Sophie: It means a lot of things to me. I mean, I think it's a great description of the human existence. For everybody, even people who think their existence is very ordered. It's certainly an accurate description of how I think my life is operating and sometimes I that's when it was not so glorious, but recently I've been really appreciating it and really appreciating my ability to navigate chaos and not to feel like I had to control everything to feel like I'm part of what's happening and I'm managing, I'm staying afloat or even better than staying afloat. So I think that generally the concept of life being a glorious chaotic mess that we're all just navigating as best we can. I think that appeals to me. But I think also, And I'm saying this with so much appreciation and love, but I feel like that's how we operated in our time together.
[01:00:39] Like, I don't think I didn't have any preconceptions and I really appreciated how we could come in and talk about whatever I had to bring that day. You were never judgy, you were never pushing against me, whatever I came in with, we worked with. I took away something really material and big and meaningful to me out of every session. I really feel like every time we spoke, I took away something that I didn't have before. And it evolved out of whatever we just, we started out with. Anyone listening to this is going to be able to tell from how we've just rambled for the last hour over everything, what our sessions were like, but I came in because I was like I want to feel different. And my focus was chronic pain. And I came out and I did feel different about my pain. And I also now feel different about a whole bunch of other things. How we got there was not in any way linear, but it was glorious.
[01:01:33] Deb: Yes, I am not the coach for people who want a very linear process. But at the same time, I'm gonna kind of call myself out on that because it's like there are so many entry points. So there's not one right way, right? Like, I don't believe that. What we were always doing was giving you space to respond and to relate to the things that you were experiencing. differently. And it's kind of fun when it starts, when you're like, Oh, this same kind of thing is also happening over here. And it's also maybe happening a little bit over here. We could start to see this web of self strategies. And all of these strategies have helped you survive and create this life that you, wanted to have. And then what we started to do was let go of the ones that aren't serving you be like, oh, we can say goodbye to this 1, what do we want to replace it with?
[01:02:31] Sophie: I think for me, the ability to come in and be able to say. Like this is, this is not just a pain at all, but here's what's going on for me right now. It didn't mean that I didn't get something out of the session that was helpful for my pain.
[01:02:46] And so I remember laughing about it at some stage, ,Oh, we're talking about all this other stuff. You need to be my everything coach. And that's kind of what you turned into really.
[01:02:54] I can't imagine succeeding in this or I can't imagine coming out of this. Um, and feeling this way, having gone through a different, more structured process, you know, having gone through a, like, let's talk about this and let's talk about this and let's talk about this. It wouldn't have worked in the same way for me.
[01:03:12] I'm just very grateful, not only because of the outcomes, but also because I got to feel very accepted and welcomed. And, there was nothing that I could say that was going to be wrong. That was going to be the wrong thing, it never felt like I was dragging you away from what you wanted to focus on to focus on something else. It came together in a way for me, that was very just meaningful and helpful and transformative.
[01:03:38] Deb: Yeah. Maybe integrative is the word. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good word. Oh, I had a thought that went away. Where'd it go? Hmm. I don't know what it was. Thanks. We could talk forever. That is the one thing that I know is true. And maybe I really hope someday we will actually get to meet each other in person. That would be super fun.
[01:04:01] I love this skiing story. Because, you know, sometimes I think, okay, so, you know, what is next?
[01:04:08] Like what else would you like to have in your life based on this work, but you're already doing it. You're like, yeah, I'm going to go skiing.
[01:04:19] Sophie: I think I have vestiges of things, I'm still locked into a couple of things that I don't really want to be doing anymore and that I can not do anymore. So I think I have vestiges of things that I want to trim down. But mostly I feel like I'm in a really good place right now. And I know also that in six months, I might not feel like I'm in such a good place, but I feel really equipped to get through that kind of a situation now and to figure out what I need to do and how to sit back and take some breaths and deal and move forward.
[01:04:49] I have to tell you about the skiing story is that I knew that we were recording this today and I deliberately scheduled the lesson for the day before because I thought, you know what, if it doesn't work out. It's a great story. And if it does work out, it's a great story. And I wanted to be able to share it with you today. I'm really excited that I got to tell you you're like the third person I've told.
[01:05:12] Deb: Oh my God. I love that. It feels so special to be considered in that way. So thank you so much, that seems like that was like part of what was delightful about it. How you set yourself up for success.
[01:05:23] Success meaning no matter what happens, there'll be a story. I will learn something. I will have done it. I will have tried. No matter the outcome, right? And that's that concept of outcome independence, right? That's a foundational piece in, in pain recovery is that we do things regardless of that immediate outcome and then we build on it. Way to go. Yeah, I love it. That's awesome. I know that I said this with you when it happened and I'm going to just reiterate podcast because, um, I always find it, um, hilarious is, is when you were like, you didn't realize that you hadn't been having headaches, like that you didn't. And then your, you know, you checked in with your husband and you know, he confirmed that for you.
[01:06:15] And that is a thing that happens, like I remember hearing Christie Uipi, who's a mind body therapist and, um, runs a place called the Better Mind Center, but she used to work with Alan Gordon, she would say, often people don't notice the moment that their pain changes or that their pain stops, and it's something only that you can see reflected in the rear view mirror. We change the focus away from controlling pain to living your life and being in it. Your attention is being directed in a new and different way. And there's so much that we don't notice. Those moments that we don't notice that we're not giving all of our attention to pain anymore. Because your attention is someplace that you want it to be.
[01:07:06] Sophie: You know, this is something that I've coached people on in a work sense, right? Um, I spent a long time at one company and one of the things I did was mentor people who came in as lawyers into the company and they would come in and after about two or three weeks, be like this so much and I can't do, and I don't think I'm the right person. And how will I ever get on top of this? And I'm like, you know what, this is kind of a new job thing, right? You stayed in your last job a long time. So it's been a long time since you were new somewhere. What I'm going to help you get to is that in six months you're not going to remember that you felt this messy and unsure of yourself.
[01:07:39] So what your job is right now is just to keep going and accept that you're going to feel bad about it for a while because you're not even going to notice when you feel better. So this concept of the change is going to happen and you're not even going to be aware of it. And I'm going to remind you in six months, remember we had that conversation.
[01:07:54] You're going to go, Oh yeah, wow. Right. That, that concept is not new to me. That concept is something that I've talked about to people for 15, 20 years. It's like, you know, um, when people move to new countries and they're like, Oh, you know, my friends would move to a new country and they'd be going, Oh, I'm having such a terrible time.
[01:08:10] And I don't know anyone. And I'd be like, you know, the first six months of moving to a new country. It's really tough. Yeah. But like stick it out and keep doing all the things that make you uncomfortable because. You know, in a year, you're going to forget how hard this first piece was, or it's not going to be on your mind all the time, how hard it is anymore.
[01:08:28] And I mean, I fiercely believe that that's true in other places. And it's such a long time since I had to coach myself through some change like that. It didn't occur to me that was what was happening to me.
[01:08:39] Deb: It brings us back to that kind of title, which is giving ourselves permission to be a glorious, chaotic mess sometimes. when we feel that discomfort or that chaos or that newness or confusion, like it doesn't mean anything. It's not a math equation, so it doesn't mean oh yes, you are failing. Oh yes, this will be disasterous. Oh yes, something bad will happen. We're just now able to be like, oh yeah, I'm really noticing some discomfort.
[01:09:11] Sophie: There were ways in which I had not put that into words for myself. That ability to focus on what is happening now and not immediately assume that whatever happening is happening now is going to be happening forever. For me, that is the absolute core of what I took away. And this idea that sometimes I'm going to have pain, sometimes I'm going to wake up and not feel so great. Sometimes I'm going to have a headache. All of the stuff, it's not going to last forever. And it does not mean that my life has to be getting smaller and smaller. That is so valuable.