I had the pleasure of interviewing one of my favorite TMS educators and most kind and HILARIOUS colleagues.... Here's Dani in her own words: I specialise in the care of the chronic condition/mind-body medicine community, having healed from years of chronic pain and anxiety using mindbody tools myself. My approach to healing harnesses the power of the nervous by training the body-mind into a place of safety and out of survival mode. I teach gentle yoga, meditation and breathwork tailored to the self-healing community and coach in the form of online courses and masterclasses. Please be sure to check out Dani's work and listen for clues to help you borrow belief that healing is possible for you and that this journey can be full of connection and compassion both with ourselves and with community.
I had the pleasure of interviewing one of my favorite TMS educators and most kind and HILARIOUS colleagues....
Here's Dani in her own words, I specialise in the care of the chronic condition/mind-body medicine community, having healed from years of chronic pain and anxiety using mindbody tools myself. My approach to healing harnesses the power of the nervous by training the body-mind into a place of safety and out of survival mode. I teach gentle yoga, meditation and breathwork tailored to the self-healing community and coach in the form of online courses and masterclasses.
Please be sure to check out Dani's work and listen for clues to help you borrow belief that healing is possible for you and that this journey can be full of connection and compassion both with ourselves and with community.
Dani's website that has everything.
https://mytmsjourney.com
Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/mytms_journey
Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/mytmsjourney
[00:00:00] Welcome to the curiosity cure podcast. I'm your host, Deb Malkin, master certified life coach, body worker, hypnotist trained in pain reprocessing by the pain psychology center, queer elder fat human on planet earth here to help you evoke the power of simple neuroplasticity techniques rooted in shame, free curiosity.
[00:00:29] So you can feel more better. More of the time in the body you have today and build the rich, full life that you want to live. A quick disclaimer. This podcast is not a replacement for medical care. I am here to provide insights and techniques that can compliment your healthcare journey, but always consult with your healthcare provider for personalized advice.
[00:00:55] Deb: I am so excited to bring this conversation finally to you. I got to speak with my colleague, Dani Fagan, of my TMS journey. One, I have to appreciate her because this is very late. We talked long before she was releasing her new course, which came out in March, about unmasking. But everything is evergreen. I highly recommend that you go to her website and check it out. Especially, if what we've talked about on this conversation resonates with you. One of the reasons why it took so long is that when she and I get together, we are very chatty and we have a lot to say. Sometimes when you share TMS, like when you share something with other people kind of doesn't matter what it is. There's this sense of knowing, this sense of connection that you have with the other person and Dani and I have that. But not all of it is really for you to listen to, because that would be weird and boring if you just listen to the inside of all of my conversations.
[00:02:03] So took a minute to edit all this out, to really get you the salient points. I hope you enjoy listening to the way that she and I talk about self-compassion, relating to symptoms differently. There may not be anything new in particular in terms of content. But there is always the need for repetition, for reinforcement, and also give a listen to all of the symptoms that she has recovered from because we're always borrowing belief. Borrowing belief is an idea we mentioned that in this podcast. I think that's one of the benefits of recovery stories is learning how to borrow belief from people who've been through it and really understand it. I hope you enjoy listening. Thank you so much for listening and following and sharing the curiosity cure.
[00:02:56] What I've been doing is telling their story. If it's somebody who is had their own pain recovery experience, we'll go through their story and then the arc.
[00:03:05] But I also feel like you've told that in lots of places, is there like this next level, as somebody who's been doing this work for a while that you think is important to get to...
[00:03:16] Dani: yeah. Well, I guess just seeing how my own sort of healing journey and my own progress has sort of shifted a little bit since we last spoke, I don't really identify, I suppose, as that pain person anymore.
[00:03:31] So it's quite, it's okay to look back and it's okay to tell that story because it's very relevant and it helps people resonate and understand why I do what I do and have trust in what I have to say. But I'm much more in a place of self compassion and Not my whole life is healing and pulling back from that kind of stuff now.
[00:03:51] And I guess that's a very privileged situation to be in because obviously I'm at a place where I can do that, but there has definitely been more emotional and more personal healing, that's happened after getting out of pain, which could be interesting to share I don't know.
[00:04:10] Yeah.
[00:04:11] Deb: I really trust us. Dani, I'm so happy to have you here on my podcast, the curiosity cure.
[00:04:18] You are one of the early educators for me, somebody who felt a kinship towards, right. So somebody who's a Yoga instructor. Somebody who's doing work rooted in the body, who is not a doctor or a therapist and also so you're really good at graphic design or whatever it is.
[00:04:37] It's like, you're really good at communicating ideas. That's really the point of graphic design, right? So you're really good at communicating ideas. I just love learning from you because it feels like being in good company. For my audience who may or may not know who you are, could you introduce yourself and what you do and we'll jump from there.
[00:04:59] Dani: Well, first of all, so much for inviting me on your wonderful podcast. It's so nice to see your face again. And I know that probably people aren't seeing your face. They're listening to your voice, but it is so nice to see your face and hang out with you again. I love what you're doing. I think you bring a really beautifully fresh perspective to the healing space.
[00:05:20] It's not your usual kind of commentary and narrative, it's very unique and I love that. I love the name of the podcast. I think it's not focused on suffering and it's not focused on pain and it's not specific about stuff like that.
[00:05:37] It's very much that more loving approach, that more curious rather than frantic kind of feeling to it. I know. I just love it. So the original question was what, who am I? My name's Dani. And I had my own recovery story a few years ago. And in summary, basically wanted to help other people to find key resources, places that they could find information on how to heal chronic symptoms and heal emotional overwhelm and nervous system, healing, recovery, whatever you want to call it ideas and help basically resources and assistance.
[00:06:17] Since creating that original resource on my website, I've worn a few different hats, I suppose in this space. Originally just sharing information and being part of the community myself, because I was recovering myself. That shifted into, learning about yoga and learning about the mind body connection in a somatic sense, in a very sort of felt sense, from my own personal learning and love of yoga and breath work and meditation and how those tools really helped me to not only recover in myself, but also gave me more of a purpose, I think, in this sort of self healing community.
[00:06:59] I think it's quite common for a lot of us that recover that want to share the message. I'm just another voice in this sea of people that's trying to communicate. Having a bit of a niche is quite helpful, I think, so I did that.
[00:07:14] And then in true ADHD fashion, I got really overwhelmed with doing that. All of the things that I've done so far are all available online. I've shifted into more educational, I guess, or coaching kind of role where I offer, online zoom group sessions, they're themed usually around specific topics that are related to chronic recovery.
[00:07:39] I feel now my focus is more shifting towards, the importance and transformational effects of self compassion of letting go of old patterns, of creating boundaries and inner strength and stuff like that. And just how much that is related to wellness basically, like nevermind getting over chronic symptoms, any kind of wellness, mental health, physical health, emotional health.
[00:08:10] My healing journey continued after I got out of pain. I went into a much deeper dive into emotional well being. I did a few months of EMDR therapy. I've done, other trauma recovery, somatic experiencing type stuff, parts work to really help me resolve, I don't know if the right's word, but, to help me come to terms with things that were triggering my pain and the things that created that situation for me in the first place. So that's kind of where I'm at now. I'm still healing things, but I'm sharing Different perspectives than what maybe I used to, that were very much just focused on healing pain, healing symptoms, healing pain, healing symptoms.
[00:08:50] It's not really about that kind of stuff anymore. Although very related.
[00:08:54] Deb: Sure. I definitely see myself in the same experience when pain is not the focus of my attention, you know, it's just the deeper parts, which is okay, what else is calling my attention? What are the parts of me that I've not been paying attention to?
[00:09:13] Because pain is all that I can notice, and all that's communicating to me. So, yeah, I see a similar thing, which is kind of why this podcast is called the curiosity cure, because what I enjoy exploring is like all of the foundations of pain, reprocessing and neuroplastic pain recovery are so useful as foundations for so many other things, right? Right. For emotional pain. So that way of taking something, moving away from avoidance to curiosity with that self compassion with that gentleness really kind of changes this whole sense of being, right. Our felt sense of ourselves really changes,
[00:09:57] Dani: completely.
[00:09:58] Deb: What I love about sharing people's recovery stories is when people are in that place of being in chronic pain at whatever level that they're at, it's very hard to imagine not being.
[00:10:09] Dani: Yes,
[00:10:10] Deb: not being that person
[00:10:12] Dani: a hundred percent. I always like to put myself in the shoes of someone suffering with whatever I share, because it has to resonate obviously with, with that persona, I find that sometimes the things I'm saying may fall on deaf ears because It's like, well, yeah, I would love to be able to believe those things.
[00:10:31] I'd love to be able to feel those things or change those patterns or understand those concepts, but I'm just struggling and suffering right now. And that is all I can see. Right. It almost feels like, and I felt this right from the start. I don't know if this is true for you.
[00:10:47] When I did recover, I almost felt like ashamed because I I had and other people hadn't and it was like, okay, well, I want to be able to show you how to do this, but I also don't want to seem like, Oh, well, look at her. She's done it. She's great. Like, I don't want to be that person. Do you know what I mean?
[00:11:08] Deb: Totally. Actually, yeah, I had an experience like that, that actually sent me into a pain flare, like that kind of conflict was a really interesting trigger for me, not, not fun, but very useful in terms of like my own self concept.
[00:11:30] Dani: I mean, we're always learning, aren't we? Every single thing that happens in this journey, when you're self aware and you teach yourself these ways of living now that you're aware of your triggers, you're aware of your emotions, you're aware of other people's stuff, your hypervigilance might be dialed down, but you're still mapping the horizon for, you know, threats and stuff like that.
[00:11:51] It just, you know, It's an unavoidable thing, unfortunately, when you do this work, that like your eyes are opened and they can't be closed again,
[00:11:58] Deb: you know,
[00:11:59] Dani: so it does take a little bit of even more self compassion to take a step back from all the watching and all the improving and all the self work to just go, do you know what, even if I am a mess, even if I am not completely healed, even if I'd still have trauma, even if all of these things, that's actually okay.
[00:12:19] Like we're okay. Yeah. You know, it's all right.
[00:12:23] Deb: It is all right. Okay. I am gonna bring you back and just ask you about,
[00:12:27] Dani: did I go off tangent again?
[00:12:29] Deb: No, you were, it was perfect. It's totally perfect. Oh God. I think the part that I want, and it can be quick, like we don't have to linger there. I do want people to understand that you recovered from symptoms that you had been experiencing for a long time.
[00:12:46] Yes. So maybe just share what you recovered from.
[00:12:49] Dani: Okay. So the. The peak symptom, let's say the one that made me sit up and notice and really fear what was happening in my body was, chronic lower back pain. So the typical lumbar area, you know, just above this sacrum, that kind of space, major muscle spasms and just debilitating pain.
[00:13:13] It did kind of shift into sciatica. And I've actually kept a notes file on my phone of all the other things that since learning about this work and since understanding it and experiencing the symptom imperatives and the circus shitshow that goes along with dealing with these things, you want to hear this laundry list.
[00:13:36] And this hasn't been updated for a little while because I've just forgotten about, I forgot I even had it until you mentioned earlier on in the laundry list. Okay, you ready? Take a seat. Get comfy, get some snacks. Okay. We have, other than the chronic back pain, we have hair loss, vertigo, dizziness, insomnia, fatigue, migraines, and ocular pain, so eye socket pain, gut bloating, palpitations, butt pain, hip pain, excessive sweating, anxiety, depression, teary eyes, nausea, neck pain, stiff neck, burning skin, headaches, random skin patches of soreness, period like pain when it shouldn't really be the time for period like pain, tinnitus, right hand knuckle joint pain, left wrist pain, neck pain again, tennis elbow, tennis shoulder or something shoulder, right wrist pain, restless leg syndrome and burning feet.
[00:14:43] Hooray! Round of applause for my circus shitshow.
[00:14:47] Deb: I'm going to just adopt that and just start calling my body a circus shitshow, with so much love, with all this love.
[00:14:55] Dani: Because really, if you think about it, it's a good way to look at it though, isn't it? Because Yeah, all those things feel awful and they're like debilitating and frightening, but they're really harmless, like it is just firing alarms in my body in different ways. And not all of those things happened at once. Like I'm talking about over years now and the way that we learn, When we get new symptoms, the way that we learn now to address them and approach them stops them becoming chronic, like they're just sensations that crop up, they might hang around a few days until you realize, oh yeah, this is probably TMS, this is probably mind body, this is probably neuroplastic, I'm stressing, I'm burying, whatever thing I need to be expressing, you know, when we try and cope, our body speaks.
[00:15:40] So that's my, that's my current list,
[00:15:44] Deb: Quite a list because, you know, I can categorize some of them into classifications and diseases or what people would call different syndromes. And then you know, I never want people to not pursue medical care, right. Get things ruled out. Those things are important, but sometimes, diseases are really classifications of symptoms that get labeled as a disease or an illness and they have a mind body root. Right. You see it, I'm sure as well. It's like people go through the long journey to come around to doing mind body work.
[00:16:28] Dani: I think you have to go through that process. Really. I don't, I don't think I've ever met anybody that jumps to mind body. You know, it's like,
[00:16:36] I know, but nobody would believe
[00:16:39] you. Nobody would believe you. They'd go to the doctor first 800 times. Until they're desperate and nothing has worked and I think that it's just true for I want to say everybody the vast majority of people.
[00:16:53] Deb: If I can influence people just a little bit. Please listen. To only go to 100 doctors instead of. Yeah,
[00:17:02] Dani: I know right.
[00:17:03] Deb: Yeah, but it's hard. It's hard because, it can feel very despairing, and very, um, you know, like our body is not, is not our friend. Right. It's not our ally.
[00:17:17] Dani: Yeah. It feels like that way. Right.
[00:17:20] Deb: Here's a joke that I wanted to say.
[00:17:23] Dani: Yes.
[00:17:23] Deb: Have you tried yoga for that?
[00:17:25] Dani: Ah fuck off. You know, I love that one. Oh my god. It's just, uh, it almost stopped me doing it. You know, it almost stopped me doing the yoga for mind body thing because it is such a cliche. Like, yeah, my doctor said that to me too. And then my doctor also said, um, So I know you like yoga, you should never ever forward fold, like with your back as it is.
[00:17:49] You should never be bending your body, like not even reaching to the floor. You should be, like, squatting to pick something up off the ground. Never ever bend forward, like, just the amount of bullshit I was fed. It just, it's It's crazy really to think that these people are the ones in the white coats and they're the ones that we're trusting and putting all of our Hopes and dreams in like it's just bullshit the majority of it.
[00:18:15] Deb: Yeah, the amount of nocebo fear messaging, you know authoritative prescriptive Bullshit,
[00:18:24] Dani: it's an opinion at the end of the day like you said Like diagnoses even, are names for clusters of symptoms, like anything with the word syndrome on it really should be questioned, at least those.
[00:18:36] Deb: Yeah. I think it's helpful. People who are suffering need to be believed. Like what you're experiencing is real.
[00:18:44] Dani: Yes.
[00:18:44] Deb: Never, nobody ever anywhere should tell anybody that they're making it up.
[00:18:50] Dani: Right. And why the fuck would you go to a doctor if you're making something up? Why would you even bother booking an appointment to tell a story that isn't true?
[00:18:59] I mean, it's horrendous.
[00:19:02] Deb: Yeah. People need to be heard. They need to be believed. They need to be connected with, but then they also need help. Telling you not to forward fold ever for the rest of your life. Don't bend over to pick something up. I
[00:19:17] Dani: mean, it's just ridiculous. And that was based off, um, you know, just looking at an MRI, he hadn't even examined me.
[00:19:25] It was just looking at an MRI that was four years old that showed a herniated disc, which is like the most common thing in every adult's spine, if you were to MRI everybody, like, it's just so much fear that is surrounding these things that I think, yeah, coming back to the original point, I think it is, um, unfortunately, inevitable that you go through the ringer a little bit with the doctors and the chiropractors or whatever it is to do with your symptoms before you figure out, like, hang on a second this is not working, like there has to be something else and, you know, many people don't get to that point, which is quite sad. They don't, you know, push long enough to figure out that it could, they could have an emotional element or a brain neuroplasticity component.
[00:20:13] Deb: Yeah.
[00:20:14] Dani: Um, that's why we shout loudly, don't we?
[00:20:16] Deb: I feel like it's my duty to shout loud these days. 100%. Yes. 100%. Um, so, okay. So what was your like, aha moment that kind of, you know, you're like going along a track and then there's this detour, how did you take that detour?
[00:20:39] Dani: My aha moment was reading Healing Back Pain by Dr. John Sarno. It was like reading a story about me and I, I was just overcome with emotion that this man, this little gorgeous doctor man in America knew me inside out.
[00:21:01] And I'd never told anybody those things, like, from the specifics of experiences in your life that can create Chronic pain, chronic conditions to how my doctors will have responded to my MRI down to, you know, it's just, I felt like for the first time, like you say, I felt completely seen and understood.
[00:21:24] And I felt like, even though it took me a while to sort of figure out what to do with that information, it felt like a total turning point of my whole life. Um, and also validation that those things that I had experienced. mattered in a way, you know, because I'd hidden them and perfected and people pleased and all these patterns my way through life to cover the issues, I guess, that were buried inside that, um, were causing these things.
[00:22:03] And it felt really validating for someone to say that did happen and it did matter. And your response to what happened is real and valid, you know? So yeah, beautiful Saint Sarno. He, like for many of us probably, saved, quite literally saved my life probably.
[00:22:26] Deb: What I love about, The power of his books and learning more about him.
[00:22:33] And kind of one of the reasons I make this podcast is, you know, he did this work before the internet. He wrote a book and his treatment plan was like, come to a three hour lecture in which you sit in a chair.
[00:22:48] Dani: Yeah. You have to show up. Yeah.
[00:22:50] Deb: You have to show up and then you just, and then you have listened to a lecture.
[00:22:56] So my brain just explodes because I am a former body worker. And when I learned this stuff, I changed everything in my practice. I stopped focusing on the body part of the complaint and started focusing on The person on the table and creating this sense of coherence and safety. And like I even stopped well, not that I stopped, I asked a broader question, which was like, how would you like to feel at the end of our session?
[00:23:26] Because people would come in and they would tell me about their back that hurt, their neck that hurt, their elbow that hurt, like this thing that hurt. And like all of that's important information, right?
[00:23:34] I don't want to be like poking at something that hurts. But what I realized is when I did work on clients and I focused on what their complaint was, they did not feel better at the end of the session. Sometimes you can get that kind of, Oh, it has to hurt to then you feel good later, which is I think a little bit of a placebo narrative.
[00:23:58] And certainly you move from intensity to less intensity, it feels like it hurts less for sure. There might be very useful things about myofascial release and deep tissue work, sure. But what I noticed is those people would come back with the same complaint.
[00:24:15] Yes. Over and over. So. Yes. I was like, I think there's this distancing that happens inside people that the part that hurts kind of isn't integrated with the self, right? It's something that we want to reject and maybe it even on a, um existential way kind of represents the part of ourselves that we want to reject or the part that feels rejected.
[00:24:41] And neurologically it feels rejected because you're not using that body part. There's less wiring and connection and things like that. So I was just really like, how do you, all of you, the you that is like a whole human want to feel at the end of our time. And that was always what was in my head when I was working on people working, we love that. Because finally I was like, Oh, it's not my job to fix anybody, but to help them, you know, sometimes this time is the only time that people are taking for themselves. They get this one hour. And the last thing you want to do is like poke at the poke on the thing that hurts.
[00:25:24] Dani: A hundred percent. And it just reinforces your focus and hypervigilance on that one spot as well. Right. I love what you said about, um, you know, it sort of being existentially somehow related, or you could perceive it to be that part that you push away or the part that isn't heard, or the part that is kind of hurting inside is literally referenced in your body.
[00:25:47] I think that's a beautiful way of looking at it. I think it helps to see it more compassionately when you can visualize it wanting to be heard and it wanting to be helped rather than poked and prodded and fixed.
[00:26:02] Deb: Yeah.
[00:26:03] Dani: I think that's a beautiful way to look at it. I like to guide people to imagine their symptoms as they're inner child shouting or screaming or asking for help, you know, because there's always something underlying these issues. Well not always, usually something underlying these issues that is of an emotional genesis.
[00:26:26] Deb: Yeah. So how do you communicate that without sounding like, your trauma is stuck in your body, which is not a phrase that I love, or without people hearing oh, it's really just like an emotional problem.
[00:26:44] Dani: Do you mean because it sounds like that's all in my head?
[00:26:47] Deb: Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Or it's like the next version of it's all in my head.
[00:26:52] Dani: Yeah.
[00:26:52] Deb: Kind of more updated, new agey version.
[00:26:56] Dani: Yeah, I think it's a really tricky one, isn't it? To communicate because On the one hand, people understand that stress, let's really just break it down to simple terms, stress creates pain, stress creates headaches, let's say, or nervousness creates tummy ache. That is an understood concept, right? People get that. So there is a basic understanding of the mind body connection, but I think it is quite hard for people to Understand or accept that emotional strain and nervous system overwhelm and hyper focus on symptoms can create symptoms, like just fearing symptoms can create symptoms.
[00:27:37] Like there's a great quote from Alan Gordon's book. I think it was like my fear of turning my pain chronic turned it chronic, you know,
[00:27:47] Deb: yeah,
[00:27:47] Dani: I think it's a really tricky one and it's hard to, it's hard. I don't really know if I even have an answer. We try and answer this specific thing in every message that we share in this space.
[00:27:58] It's a sort of a combination of. Please believe this concept, and here's proof as to why this is the concept, you know what I mean? That is one of the biggest part of this whole teaching, is actually getting people to believe it. After that it's much easier to, to work with. I guess, It comes with proof of concept in a way, people see other people recovering and they read other stories and they see changes in themselves.
[00:28:24] I think it just takes a bit of a leap of faith really to borrow belief, even at the beginning, maybe to approach something like this. I don't know if I have a clear answer for that.
[00:28:34] Deb: I mean, I think that's the clear answer is that there's no clear answer because yeah. Because there is a level of inner work, but along with that, what I want to say is people don't have to resolve everything to resolve pain.
[00:28:48] Dani: No. A hundred percent. Yeah. No, no, no, no. And if you do have trauma in your body or you do have, you know, suppressed tension from your nervous system in your body, you don't have to go and uncover everything that's ever happened to you and find the Holy grail and, you know, make friends with the person that bullied you and all those things.
[00:29:09] It's not about that. Really? Really. It's not about that. It's it's about, it's about releasing or lessening the pressure internally. So reducing fear, fixation, and fight, all those things that Dr. Schubiner talks about. Those five F's, it's really down to that. Fear is a huge component. Some people I know that have recovered just from removing the fear component.
[00:29:37] For most people that I speak to, there is an emotional component underneath that is, um, needs to be addressed. But the biggest thing actually that I see in people in a hundred percent of the people that I speak to, I have no qualms in saying that, that number with, you know, absolute certainty is that.
[00:29:57] Everybody is fighting with themselves on the inside. Everybody has a difficult relationship with themselves. Every single one. Like, nobody has spared this. This is just society as it is, unfortunately. And those of us that resonate with that, which is probably everybody listening to this, is like, I don't know if this is true for you.
[00:30:23] For me, I didn't even realize that you could have a relationship with yourself. Like I didn't even know that was a thing. I thought beating yourself up was the norm. Like we're kind of almost taught in society, right? To always have to do better and never be good enough and push, push, push, hustle, hustle, you know, work harder, show up more, be prettier, be thinner, whatever it is.
[00:30:46] We're reinforced that we're not good enough. So that internal battle for me, I believe that is what creates the biggest threat, feeling of threat in our nervous system that creates these conditions or perpetuates them at least.
[00:31:02] Deb: Yeah, absolutely. And because they're so familiar, I don't think we see them as threat.
[00:31:10] Right. Until we kind of are like trying to cultivate this sense of self that isn't fueled by comparison, self judgment or actual judgment, right? Like the way that we've internalized, that kind of societal message or familial message or peers or whatever it is, Until we try to cultivate a sense of self that's outside of it.
[00:31:36] It's very hard to see that as a threat. It's just seems normal.
[00:31:40] Dani: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. In fact, it feels comfortable in a way. What's that saying? I can't remember what it was. Something along the lines of like, You know, your, your nervous system will always gravitate to what feels familiar and that for the majority of us is chaos and circus shit show. That's what I felt.
[00:32:00] That's what I see in so many people, like, what do you mean rest properly and not be doom scrolling on my phone and actually go for a walk? And not have a podcast on, or music on, or have a day off, or show up to a podcast in my pajamas, no. It's obscene to think those things at first. It's almost like, you must be absolutely nuts if you think that I can't show up non chaotically in my life.
[00:32:30] And how else am I going to be productive and successful if I don't beat myself up? Like, it's almost like that's the only way that people see. But like you say, It's so familiar, it's, you're blind to it.
[00:32:42] Deb: It's almost like we never get a chance to show up as ourselves because the patriarchy and capitalism kind of have, uh, the designs on what it is to be professional or productive.
[00:32:57] These are all the hoops you have to jump through. This is all the kind of illusion you have to create to be a successful person and certainly if people are working in companies, there's like a lot of masking and performing and, you know, as RuPaul would say, drag, right? With a sense of distancing from our true self, it's like, I have failed as an employee in so many places that in some ways I'm like, yeah, this is the only work I can do.
[00:33:27] I mean, I'm sure if I figured it out, I'm just not good at conforming.
[00:33:33] Dani: Me neither.
[00:33:34] Deb: Okay, but I also don't mean to say that all people who work like in companies are conforming. No, no, no. But whatever it is for my emotional makeup, like whatever it is, the high level of discomfort that comes with, trying to be be this other person, this other sense of self. And maybe actually by the time that I feel actually really truly like comfortable in my own skin, I probably could just go like work wherever
[00:34:01] Dani: a hundred percent.
[00:34:01] Deb: Like this is just a hundred percent and like, let's get some stuff done.
[00:34:06] Dani: And that's the difference. I think that's the difference is you're now we can show up and be productive. We can still get shit done. We can still be successful. We can still be all those words, but we can do it in an encouraging and supportive way. We're not doing it in a self sacrificing, making yourself sick way.
[00:34:29] You can still achieve those things. I always used to think that, perfectionism was, you know, a bad thing and really maladaptive and stuff like that. But actually it's really helped me in many ways. It's helped me. You know, have jobs and be successful and, you know, shit like that.
[00:34:45] They're not always bad traits to have. I think there is a way to approach the world and be successful and still show up without making yourself poorly.
[00:34:55] Deb: That's that kind of all or nothingness that I actually think is an obstacle to healing when we like label some part of ourselves as bad, like, Oh, perfectionism is bad.
[00:35:04] And now I have to figure out how to not be a perfectionist, then that's when I can heal rather than like loving the perfectionist inside of you.
[00:35:13] Dani: Yes.
[00:35:14] Deb: Because that part of you is like, Oh, I find validation through achievement, you know, which is true. Cause we get validated.
[00:35:24] Dani: Absolutely. And all those parts of you have protected you and kept you safe all the way through your life.
[00:35:30] Deb: Yeah.
[00:35:31] Dani: Whether or not that's led to something, you know, maladaptive or something that hasn't helped you or created some strain in your nervous system and your mind and your emotions, they've still helped you. Like they've, they've been fucking kick ass, if anything, like they've absolutely smashed you and got you here.
[00:35:49] In more way than one, but, you know, I mean.
[00:35:52] Deb: Yeah. I think what my answer has been for people is not like, Oh, you need to like leave your life and go live on a mountaintop or completely change everything. It's like, all you need is this small adjustment. The small tweak, the part that of you that says, I can't stop this project until it's like perfect.
[00:36:11] And then you're not eating and you're not sleeping and you're not going to the bathroom and you're completely ignoring your needs. It's like you have needs and you have high standards and where's the middle in which you're like, actually trusting yourself and all the things that you have already created that you're already good at.
[00:36:33] And then just like letting go of that one part that says if it's not perfect, something bad will happen.
[00:36:38] Dani: Exactly. Exactly. The dictator part. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:36:43] Deb: Yeah. So
[00:36:45] Dani: it's so true. It is a really small shift really when you think about it, isn't it? But it's huge really when you're facing it and you're like, how can I possibly do that?
[00:36:56] Like, once you do it, obviously it becomes a lot easier as well. They become little tiny things, not crazy, scary things.
[00:37:04] Deb: The more you practice it, the more you can look back on things that you've practiced and, and be like, I'm in a process of, and even just the way that you talk to yourself differently becomes the neuroplastic part of healing.
[00:37:22] Dani: Right. That's where you set the new trodden paths. That's where, and it turns into every part of your life, doesn't it? As soon as you start to kind of apply that, what's the kinder alternative to this old moment that I'm rehashing, this old neurology? Then you start to see that in everything that you do and every way you show up.
[00:37:44] It's just life changing. Like I can't, and again, I always think like, well, yeah, you're in the pits of pain. You're not going to see and understand the importance of this, but it's truly the most transformational part of, of healing that I've experienced. Certainly like the relationship and support that I give myself now.
[00:38:04] It's something I never ever experienced before. Never.
[00:38:08] Deb: Yeah it sometimes feels very strange for me to, uh, I think I'm good at supporting other people. I've never really included myself in that category of needing help and support.
[00:38:24] Dani: Hmm.
[00:38:25] Deb: Same. It's always been, no, I help other people.
[00:38:29] Dani: I don't need anything. Yeah. Hyper independence. Yeah. I'm fine. I don't need anybody. I don't trust anybody to help me because they're all against me and shit,
[00:38:40] ha but
[00:38:41] I'll help them.
[00:38:42] I'll help the shit ones even. I'll help the people that hurt me. How about that?
[00:38:47] Deb: That's our next podcast.
[00:38:49] Dani: How to not hurt, help the people that hurt you.
[00:38:53] Deb: It's almost like trying to bargain for our own worthiness. By like, well, if those people who are, who literally,
[00:39:02] Dani: yeah, we're asking the wrong people. Yeah. For real.
[00:39:08] Deb: Because you are an expert at meditation and yoga and breath work, those are places where I know people have some skepticism or that they are places that people go to kind of manage their pain, but don't think of it as a part of a pain recovery process or experience.
[00:39:28] So I would love for you to explain the role that those practices can create that can help people. That was a very long way to say, how does that help people?
[00:39:39] Dani: So there's a few different reasons really why, first of all, it's a mind body practice. They are mind body practices. So they help to regulate your nervous system. They help to slow down your heart rate. They help to de stress your body basically. In simple terms, they are tools to help you de stress, but particularly for people in chronic pain, they can help you gain confidence in your body and gain confidence in movement, where you may have felt, you know, disabled completely by your pain or fearful of movement. So there's definitely that component, but I think again, one of the most important parts of yoga, breath, work, and meditation for me and what I teach other people is how much more compassionate you can be to yourself when you Practice these types of exercises.
[00:40:34] They're not what shape can I pull with my body and can I forward fold all the way to the floor, or can I even fit my leg up there? Or it's not about that at all. It's not the Instagram version of yoga that you may have seen people, you know, skinny white ladies doing headstands. It's not saying that I have got a picture of me doing a headstand.
[00:40:57] Don't look at that. It's more about getting comfortable with stillness, getting comfortable in your own skin and getting comfortable in witnessing your somatic experience. So for many of us that have experienced trauma or dissociate from our bodies, dissociate from our experience. It's a really beautiful tool to bring that kind of mindful element into your day that helps you get out of your head and into your body.
[00:41:30] Which was impossible for me at the beginning. I never knew that was even a thing either. Like I lived in my thoughts and in my experience in my mind and my hyper vigilant ADHD circus shit show. So it really helped me to stop all the tabs being open in my head at once and trust that. It's a weird thing, it's like, it's not just relaxing and stretching and stuff like that, that's part of it. It's more getting comfortable in the moment. And I think for a lot of people that is quite tricky and well, how do I do that? And well, how do I stop living in my head. It takes practice, which is why it's called practice.
[00:42:15] I remember you referencing this the last time we spoke, face to face, that you had started to really notice how you made coffee in the morning, and how it smelled, and how it sounded when you were grinding the beans, It creates moments like that, that are deeply compassionate and deeply body based, that are just key principles really for this type of recovery, especially for people with chronic anxiety, chronic pain, chronic dissociation, stuff like that.
[00:42:47] It is quite tricky to, to teach this space because there are a lot of trauma survivors here and a lot of stuff just feels scary, like a lot of even imagining your breath, even looking in your body for sensation, all those kind of things can be quite frightening. So it's a very soft, gentle way to start to get into your body and start to notice your sensations and where you're carrying tension and, and, and help you visualize different ways of being as well. There's a, a really, a lovely component to meditation that allows you to step outside of your current, Suffering and visualize a different scenario, which can be shockingly, it can be quite anti inflammatory on the body. Like if you can cultivate hope and you can cultivate a little bit more optimism and stuff like that, they sound like bullshit things that would have no effect, but they really do have an effect on your nervous system and how your body interprets sensation.
[00:43:48] That was a very long winded answer. I think I've covered all of it most bits.
[00:43:52] Deb: We need to hear these things more than one time because we get bombarded with messages of like how we control inflammation by controlling what we eat or there's a lot of, I don't want to say necessarily mistaken information, but, you know, sometimes like parts of the body in medicine and certainly when they sell things, like anything that gets sold to you as a product, there's oftentimes siloing research studies and then pulling out this like one thing and, and then trying to sell it back to you as the remedy.
[00:44:33] And so if we're only thinking about like the gut and the stomach, like as if it's separate from a whole self. The brain is the, the master controller of, of everything. Even, you know, yesterday I heard something right? Uh, where they kind of reference that we have 3 brains and this is not the triune brain that we know doesn't exist. It's more of a metaphor, but that there's a brain in our brain in our head. And there's a brain in our heart brain in our gut. And I think that's so interesting because those are the parts of us that sense the world around us, right? So our interoception or proprioception and neuroception, like all of the ways that our nervous system interacts with the self, that is our own ecosystem. And then the world in which we live.
[00:45:22] And it's always trying to keep us alive. And sensing for danger and threat. And so those parts of us are all doing that. And then the body is responding and mediating itself based on that information. So I think when we do create spaces of calm spaces of safety, what, and that word can be so tricky, but just that spaciousness of not always reacting to our symptoms or not always reacting to even perceived discomfort or perceived pain. It's like turning the dial down.
[00:45:59] Dani: Yeah. It can be something so simple, this is why I incorporated the Yoga Nidra and the Breathwork classes, because they don't require any movement at all. Like, the most regulating thing you can do is less. You know? So yeah, moving your body is great, and feeling into the sensations of your body is great.
[00:46:20] It's awesome for like exposure therapy, for getting used to movement, for mobility, for literally moving your body and feeling better, but really the deepest kind of meditative regulating practices don't involve you really doing anything at all. And it's getting used to that not, well, what do you know, what do I need to do?
[00:46:44] You don't actually need to do anything. It's more of a letting go and, uh, a surrender in a way. And that feels quite weird at first when you start a program like mine. It's odd. I think one thing to mention as well, which I didn't say is the sort of community element that goes along with healing as well. I think even if I don't do a live class, the interaction of people in my group and the sort of following along family, if you like, is so crucial to healing, like isolation and doing everything on your own. It's not how humans are supposed to live, it's not how human's thrive right?
[00:47:28] We need social connection and we need, it takes a village type things to not just feel seen and heard and supported, which it's literally like breathing to us. You know, it's so essential for us to feel safe. And that's probably why we like fawn and perfect and stuff like that, because we don't want to disrupt that connection, that human primal need for connection.
[00:47:55] If you are doing this alone, you are sort of self isolating, which can be a safety mechanism as well. I do that sometimes too. It can be so helpful to reach out to even an online community or a trusted friend, you know, someone that will hold space for you rather than question you or get stressed about what's happening or you then end up having to hold space for them and fix their discomfort. Like having the right kind of people to turn to this is really crucial.
[00:48:26] Deb: Totally. I do love some of the mind, body online communities where you really can show up in all the disbelief and the confusion and the fear. And it's like this very comforting gentle space, but also challenging, right? Like it's keeping people aligned. It's very encouraging and it's gentle and it's loving, but it's also saying like, keep going.
[00:48:51] Dani: Yes.
[00:48:52] Yeah. Keep going. And don't listen to all the stories you tell yourself in your head. It's
[00:48:58] Deb: like sometimes get out of these other communities that you're in that are just
[00:49:03] Dani: yes.
[00:49:05] Deb: You know, get
[00:49:06] Dani: out of the migraine group and all that.
[00:49:08] Yeah.
[00:49:09] Deb: And it's very hard to want to leave that behind because we want connection so badly. And so when we're connected with other people who are experiencing the same thing that we are experiencing, that's very valuable and you're getting something out of it, but you're not going to recover.
[00:49:26] Because also then the, then the problem is to recover means you, you get kicked out of the group, right? Like you're not going to stay in a migraine group as a person who now does not have a migraine anymore. Like, first off, sometimes people are hostile in those groups to people who are like, Hey, I feel better, this is how I did it,
[00:49:49] Dani: or this helped me,
[00:49:50] Deb: um and so to, to stay in that human contact and connection means you need to keep your symptoms. And these are things that are happening on the subconscious level. Absolutely. They're not, they're not super conscious,
[00:50:07] Dani: no,
[00:50:08] Deb: but it's like, okay, we need to feel connected To other people and yeah, maybe sometimes online groups are not the place at all where else in your life can you feel connected?
[00:50:21] Dani: Supported by someone? Yeah.
[00:50:24] Deb: Yeah. Yeah. That's why being in a group or a curable group or your group or working with a coach or There are a lot of ways. And it doesn't only have to be focused around healing too, like join choir. No, absolutely not.
[00:50:39] Do something else. Join. Yeah.
[00:50:41] Dani: Join a choir. Go and have drinks with your best friend. Yep. You know, eat chips. Yep, totally. It's all about creating that safety, isn't it, really? At the end of the day, it's like where do you feel you can be your authentic self with who?
[00:50:56] Notice who is around you when you feel like that and make more of that, not who makes you more frightened.
[00:51:03] Deb: Totally. I had dinner with a friend of mine and I was talking about stuff going on with my dad, feeling emotions and so I was crying and she just held my hand and she was so supportive and she was just like, you've been through a lot.
[00:51:17] And I like noticed, I wanted to fight her to minimize what I've been through. And I was like, Oh, I don't have to prove, yeah, other people are also going through a lot. Yeah. But I noticed that coming up like where I just wanted to be like, no, no, it's fine. And I was just like, I was like, yeah, it just accepts love and support.
[00:51:37] It's so typical, isn't it? It's so typical. It's so typical. 100 percent typical. Yeah. So sometimes that's all that we need is that sense of congruency because there is the part of me that's like, Oh my God, this feels unbearable.
[00:51:52] And then if I'm always silencing that voice. The part of me that feels unbearable with judgment or going like, you have all this privilege or you're so lucky or other people have it worse or whatever. That part of me that's suffering so exquisitely that, just wants that love, care and attention. It doesn't mean that those other things are not true, that there are other things happening for other people.
[00:52:16] Dani: Right. But it's just validating it, isn't it?
[00:52:19] Deb: Yeah,
[00:52:20] Dani: just validating it. All at once.
[00:52:22] Deb: Also, I find like when we don't validate it, it actually gets kind of louder and bigger.
[00:52:28] Dani: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:52:29] Deb: And then it takes more room and then actually It's like to feel allowed to say that I'm suffering or I'm struggling, if you're comparing yourself with the world, then almost like you're suffering needs to increase to feel like you're allowed.
[00:52:45] Dani: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Like you're not, you're not in the war, therefore your needs and your issues don't matter.
[00:52:55] I mean, what a way to self suppress.
[00:52:59] Deb: I mean, we certainly learned this from our families of origin or our cultures, right? Yeah. Not all running around being like, Oh, it's really safe to cry and have some feelings.
[00:53:13] Dani: Absolutely don't go to your room. What are you doing?
[00:53:18] Deb: Totally. One thing that you wanted somebody to internalize, about pain recovery, what would that one thing be?
[00:53:28] Dani: Oh, that's a good question.
[00:53:31] I guess, the most important one. Well, not necessarily the most important, the stepping stone, I think, for a lot of people that, where they get stuck is that trust in that this could happen for them. That this is absolutely possible for them. And if that means, you know, Borrowing someone else's belief for a little while, then so be it.
[00:53:52] Like, still try it, still jump in, still go down this route, because no matter what you're experiencing in your body, this will help you. That just got really wordy, but I think trust. In yourself and trust in this process of mind, body recovery is a big, a huge thing, but you can't do it whilst you're beating yourself up.
[00:54:18] So also trust under, underpinned by kindness and patience and compassion for yourself.
[00:54:24] Deb: Yeah. I even find like when people learn this stuff and they're excited and they like get it. Patience is the part that's really hard.
[00:54:33] Dani: Yeah. Big time. Big time. And everything's an emergency right. Especially if you've experienced trauma and hypervigilance and all of those things. Like everything has to happen now. Everything has to be done yesterday. And like that, that acceleration that we feel inside is that fight flight response, right? That is literally the gasoline to the symptom fire.
[00:54:56] So yeah. Patience is, is a really great skill to learn. It took me a long time, a very long time to figure that out.
[00:55:05] Deb: So I really, this is the problem with doing interviews. I can just talk to you forever. Yeah. Like we scratched the surface.
[00:55:14] Dani: No, we can do it again. If you want, I can do.
[00:55:16] Deb: I would love to do it again.
[00:55:18] Yeah,
[00:55:19] Dani: do it again.
[00:55:20] Deb: Share with people how they find out about your work.
[00:55:23] Dani: Yeah. Thank you. The majority of what I do and share and teach is on my website, which is mytmsjourney.
[00:55:31] com. TMS stands for the mind body syndrome or tension myositis syndrome, it just means, mind body symptoms basically. So that website houses, all my free content, all the resources I use to recover. This podcast episode will go on there in the resources section as well.
[00:55:49] Other places I've been interviewed and other podcasts that are of interest are on there. I also have a free recovery journey roadmap, which is a Six part, step by step what I did to recover and generally the elements that are required for recovery. And then I have my online courses, which are all there as well on the website.
[00:56:15] Um, some of them are on demand now that are past courses that I've taught live. And then I have another one coming up in March. I'm not sure when this episode will be live, but it doesn't matter anyway, because that will be a evergreen course that will always be available, but I'm teaching that live throughout March, 2024.
[00:56:35] So it is called Unmask and it is a 30 day journey and introspective journey to break the patterns of people, pleasing and perfectionism. So understanding the roots of those behaviors and shining a more compassionate light onto those protective mechanisms that we adopt as kids and as we grow up and how now they're not serving us and how we can change those behaviors to help us heal, to help us reduce the amount of threat and pressure in our nervous system.
[00:57:12] That is basically four live lessons and it's a ebook that Accompanies the lessons is a 30 days of self inquiry ebook as well with over 70 prompts to help you understand your own self and behavior and beautiful emotional discovery exercises. It's also 30 days access to my yoga school, unlimited classes, and two downloadable meditations as well.
[00:57:39] That sort of support the work that we're doing in the classes. The main focus of the whole thing is just shifting your perspective on how you show up in the world and building self compassion and understanding of why you are the way you are.
[00:57:53] So there's just many ways that you can really do that throughout the 30 days or not 30 days, if you get lifetime access anyways, so if you want to buy it and get to it at Christmas, you Or never. You can as well. It's the perfect ADHD accompaniment.
[00:58:06] Deb: It's almost its own experiment, which is like, if you notice that you're coming to the work with a lot of pressure, it's like, okay, how can you engage with this activity and create your own way of being more self loving or relaxed. Right. Right. Really addressing that part of you. That's like, Oh my God, if I don't do it all perfectly, like something might happen. Right. Right.
[00:58:30] Dani: Absolutely.
[00:58:31] Deb: I mean, Dani will come to your house and spank you.
[00:58:36] Dani: Yeah, like, I have your address. If you sign up, I have your address. Nice. I also like to give people the option of rewatching whatever you've missed whenever you want, but I create like an audio version of the lessons as well.
[00:58:50] So you can just go for a walk and listen to these things like it was me chatting to you on a podcast or on the phone. It's not like a lecture or anything particularly, pigeonholed like that is it's not show up every day for 30 days there's no challenge in here. It's just an invitation to find out a little bit more about yourself.
[00:59:10] And, that's the format that seems to be working best for most people that I work with at the moment is just give me a few options and I'll see which one I like to choose.
[00:59:20] Deb: Are there certain sets of symptoms or characteristics or certain like niche or type of people who tend to gravitate to your work?
[00:59:31] Dani: It's actually a bit of a mixed bag. It's mostly women, which, um, I'm now researching more into, um, that I'll share more about, but it's a big mixed bag. I wouldn't say there's anything more common than anything else. The common things are like we mirror each other as people, like the common things are our childhood experiences, the common things are our personality traits and the way that we behave and the way that we feel towards ourselves.
[01:00:04] Those are all pretty much cookie cutter from one person to the next. The symptom stuff is actually quite nuanced quite mixed bag. But yeah, everybody seems to have the same emotional underbelly to this suffering. Yeah, I know.
[01:00:19] Deb: You have such a big heart. I love what you create and share in the world. I love how you're iterating as you grow and change. I think you're bringing everybody along with you.
[01:00:31] Dani: Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to share this space and this wonky path with someone as lovely as you. I really appreciate that.