I hope you enjoy this conversation with my client Sam Cooper. They had been suffering for years with recurring back pain, that limited their mobility and their belief about their body's capacity as they aged. Through our work together they were able to return back to much loved and missed activities, expand into new ones as well as make significant life changes. Sam is an AuDHD coach, a queer nonbinary femme (they/them), an intersectional feminist, and an elder millennial (Xennial). They help neurodivergent adults (ADHD, Autistic, AuDHD, OCD) who have unconventional lives to understand and embrace their unique neurotypes, so they can effectively minimize stress, overcome challenges, and improve their quality of life.
I hope you enjoy this conversation with my client Sam Cooper. They had been suffering for years with recurring back pain, that limited their mobility and their belief about their body's capacity as they aged. Through our work together they were able to return back to much loved and missed activities, expand into new ones as well as make significant life changes.
Sam is an AuDHD coach, a queer nonbinary femme (they/them), an intersectional feminist, and an elder millennial (Xennial). They help neurodivergent adults (ADHD, Autistic, AuDHD, OCD) who have unconventional lives to understand and embrace their unique neurotypes, so they can effectively minimize stress, overcome challenges, and improve their quality of life.
Unconventional Minds Coaching: https://unconventionalmindscoaching.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/unconventionalmindsadhd
[00:00:00] Welcome to the curiosity cure podcast. I'm your host, Deb Malkin, master certified life coach, body worker, hypnotist trained in pain reprocessing by the pain psychology center, queer elder fat human on planet earth here to help you evoke the power of simple neuroplasticity techniques rooted in shame free curiosity.
[00:00:29] So you can feel more better. more of the time in the body you have today and build the rich, full life that you want to live. A quick disclaimer, this podcast is not a replacement for medical care. I am here to provide insights and techniques that can compliment your healthcare journey, but always consult with your healthcare provider for personalized advice.
[00:00:57] Deb (2): Hello.
[00:00:58] Sam: Hi.
[00:00:59] Deb (2): I am excited for this conversation.
[00:01:01] Sam: So happy to be here.
[00:01:03] Deb (2): I am happy that you are here.
[00:01:05] Thank you, Sam, for being on this podcast with me on the curiosity cure. I can't remember when we worked together, like a year, two years ago.
[00:01:16] The things that I think people would like to know is who you are and what brought you to reaching out to me, and hiring me to do this work.
[00:01:26] Sam: Thanks Deb. I'm delighted to finally be on your podcast. So, as you said, I'm Sam and I'm a non binary femme and I live in Brooklyn.
[00:01:38] I am an ADHD coach. I was thinking about this a few minutes before we started the call. I believe that we started working together in, like, the late summer or autumn of 2021. So, what is time that was like, 3 years ago
[00:01:54] now.
[00:01:54] Yeah. And at the time I had recently moved to New York City.
[00:01:58] And was finding, a lot of challenges with my body at the time. And I'd been trying to pursue some sort of medical diagnosis through like allopathic medicine and wasn't really getting anywhere. If anything, I was finding that I was getting further and further away from like where I wanted to be by going down that road, like my symptoms were getting worse and I wasn't getting any answers, things were like inconclusive or doctors would see me for like two minutes and not examine me or look at my lab results and say, um, you probably have fibromyalgia? And I think that experience was kind of the, the kicker for me that got me thinking I need to, I want to pursue another path with this.
[00:02:52] Like, I don't think this is working. And I remember I, you and I had connected on Instagram, about, this book called how emotions are made. We had connected like months prior and I thought you were really cool. And then I saw that you were doing a like pain recovery program and decided that I wanted to check it out and explore working together. At that point. I was having, pretty severe back pain that I was waking up with, or wasn't able to sleep because of. I remember I was having pain in my knees and it got to the point where I stopped feeling able to do the things I really love doing, like, hiking. I stopped doing hiking, sometime in, um 2020, because the pain felt too severe. It felt too risky. And then when I moved to New York, I was living near a place called Riverside Park, and I stopped feeling able to go up and down the stairs. Um, because of the knee pain at that point, I was pretty upset and depressed about it. I think by the time we started working together, but obviously I was open to things changing.
[00:04:09] And that's why I felt able to, to reach out to you and explore this path. And so, yeah, that's what, that's what brought me to you.
[00:04:19] Deb (2): Amazing. Thank you. It really was a long time ago.
[00:04:23] Sam: It was. And I think we worked together for like a couple of years, but yeah, it was, it was over three years ago.
[00:04:32] Deb (2): We did our initial work and then there was a way and what I loved about the work that we did is that it expanded and grew, not just from pain recovery, but kind of just like a, almost life recovery.
[00:04:46] I don't know if that's exactly the right word, but in mind body work, the intersections right between the mind and the body are so. Like you pull on one thread and then all of a sudden you're starting to notice like all of the connections, right, between triggers in the past or emotions, how we experience them, how we allow them, what we believe about our bodies and ourselves.
[00:05:11] Um, so sometimes what it leads to is like getting to just to deepen the work, even when we felt better. I like to think of it as like feeling better on all different levels.
[00:05:23] So you knew a little bit, it sounds like also, right? We both fans of Lisa Feldman Barrett, and like being a curious person, right? And being an Audi HD coach. I'm sure leads you to mean. I know that your work is called unconventional minds. Is that it?
[00:05:42] Sam: Unconventional minds coaching. Yeah.
[00:05:44] Deb (2): Yeah. So even just the ability to perceive yourself through a different lens, right? Through a non pathologized lens I think really lends itself to that kind of curiosity that I think is helpful when we're approaching mind body work because we have to kind of pick up the idea that pain in my body doesn't necessarily equal tissue damage.
[00:06:08] That's a big mindset shift. It's a big change in belief system. You definitely kind of both we're ready to do this for your own body, but also I think like we're able to hold that there's more complexity and nuance.
[00:06:23] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. I definitely felt like for me, it helps that I had a little bit of a background and pain science or whatever you want to call it through, like, being familiar with Lisa Feldman Barrett's work and then, you had a very useful curriculum that we went through that just like really reinforced that for me. So it's interesting because in some ways, yeah, I felt like I am a pretty open minded person. And I think that helped with me going into, to working with you and being open to like other paths of, you know, Feeling better than just through allopathic medicine. I think that background helped, a lot of the pain education stuff that you did is like, you know, there's a lot of scientific backing for it.
[00:07:12] And I think for me, I was just like, Oh yes, I get this. Like it, my brain just, it really made sense to me. And I think that also, helped with my recovery too.
[00:07:23] Deb (2): That's one of my favorite feelings when something makes sense. Same, right? There's something that brings about this sense of ease and whatever the opposite of fear is. When I feel congruent and something makes sense, I can go from that intellectual, oh, I understand this to the embodied version of it. For me, that's changes everything. That's kind of what, what my initial experience was in doing this work for my own body. Oh, this makes sense, we're actually experiencing something and how we even experience an idea or knowledge can be felt so profoundly and deeply in the body.
[00:08:04] And so I think for us, like curious knowledge seekers, people who love for things to make sense when something makes sense in a way that like really resonates, that just opens that, that door and that pathway, but already changes things to feel differently.
[00:08:19] Sam: Yes, absolutely. And I think I remember I had like pretty immediate results with you.
[00:08:28] I think that's the word I would use. Like within the first couple of weeks I started experiencing things differently. You know, I was just really ready in the work that we did, helped everything fall into place and coalesce in a very short period of time.
[00:08:46] Deb (2): So tell me more about what those results were and kind of how you experienced it and, and the ideas that I shared with you in the way that I had laid it out or even in our conversations, if you remember, cause now it's so long ago, sometimes, I mean, can you even remember what it was like? I know sometimes when I have had change, I'd be like, what, what was that? What was that weird? Oh yeah. It was in pain all the time. That was terrible.
[00:09:12] Sam: Yeah, to be honest, it's kind of a hazy memory at this point, but it was so much of my life that I, you know, it was years of my life that I do very much remember it. What I mostly remember honestly is feeling like I had to avoid things because they felt too risky. Like I said earlier about going up and down stairs in Riverside Park.
[00:09:34] I remember feeling pretty quickly in our work that I started feeling safer in my body. And, mainly that I didn't have to just like jump into doing things that felt risky. Like I didn't need to do like an immediate full on exposure to like, I don't know, running up and down the stairs and Riverside park.
[00:09:55] But I do remember there was this moment where things really shifted where I was going on a walk, which I went on every day and, I started going down the stairs. That I, you know, had trouble with and I felt this painful tweak in my knee. And instead of just stopping, like I had before, I just slowed down and thought to myself, like, there's, there's nothing wrong.
[00:10:22] Sam: It's okay. And then I was just able to go down the stairs. I wasn't at like the, the pace that I'd started with, but I was just, I've slowed down a lot and. After that moment, I felt some discomfort, but it wasn't the pain that made me suddenly stop in the middle of doing things. And after that, that, that was a huge shift for me that moment that was like, Oh, I can still do the things that I love doing that I want to do.
[00:10:50] I just need to make a few adjustments to help myself feel safer and better to do it. I think the work that we did together really helped me embody and integrate this concept of discomfort doesn't necessarily, mean that you're not safe. You can be uncomfortable and still do the things that you want to do. You can be uncomfortable and not avoid the things that bring you pleasure and joy. Like you can hold both of those experiences at the same time. There were a lot of specific things that we talked about in terms of the pain recovery at chronic pain science and all of that. But, that was really the, the moment where it all came together where I just thought. I don't need to stop doing things. I'm just going to slow down and help it feel a little safer, so I feel a little bit more secure. And then I, then I continue to do the things rather than stop.
[00:11:44]
[00:11:46] Deb (2): I love that and it sounds so simple. And it also makes sense that when we feel pain, we're always told that we should stop what we're doing. Right. So that we don't hurt ourselves or damage our body. Which gives you very few options. So this easing, this way of slowing down of like meeting yourself and meeting that fear, right?
[00:12:08] Like meeting that flair of fear that was probably kind of bigger and louder than the actual tweak just being like, okay, and we're okay. And then to keep going, which then proves that idea, right? You're proving then to yourself in absolutely that you're okay.
[00:12:27] Yeah.
[00:12:28] Sam: Yes, and there's another thing that comes to mind during our work together there, which was, you know, more than a few months. I think it was march or April of 2022, I got Covid yeah, the week after the acute period where I was able to get off the sofa and actually do things, um, as soon as I started doing that, I don't know if you remember, but I had this, like, very intense flair of sciatica, which I'd never had before. And it was excruciating.
[00:13:00] And I know that. If you and I hadn't done all the work that we had done together, I don't know what would have happened at that point. What I did that week is I, well, I did a little bit of research because I'm just 1 of those people and I found out that, like, with sciatica activity that actually does help. Sitting or being sedentary is actually not what you need.
[00:13:24] And so I recall now that that particular week I walked 40 miles, um, but these were very slow walks, much slower than I had done before. And, While I did go to a physical therapist, eventually, by the time I got to them, um, my pain was virtually gone because I had gone through this process of engaging in movement and being like, fairly consistent about it, in a slow way that felt safe to me.
[00:13:56] There wasn't much for them to do by the time I got to them. It was kind of incredible. And while I have had some flare ups of sciatica since then, they don't stop me from doing things. I will, you know, feel it and be like, okay, that's there.
[00:14:09] And that's kind of annoying. But, what it does is help reinforce to me that like doing things is actually good and healthy for my body. And that actually avoiding doing things often reinforces pain for me. So while I still do experience some flare ups of sciatica, it really hasn't stopped me from doing much at all in the last couple of years.
[00:14:30] Deb (2): That's incredible. And also how powerful it is to really be able to feel and believe that your body is strong and capable. And then to pursue things with that attitude. Right. So, _uhuh _you told me that you are now like lifting weights and that's been feeling really good. Can you share a little bit about that?
[00:14:52] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. A few months ago I started lifting weights. I've been reading that as we age, it's important to like engage in strength training. So I started feeling really committed to doing that fairly gradually. But a couple of days ago I did leg day at the gym and I did 230 pounds on the leg press.
[00:15:12] Um, and you know, when I, whenever I do the leg press machine, actually, I think about the work we did together and how before we started working together, I, I never, ever could have imagined that I would be able to do that. Like I had assumed that my, ability, my body's capacity was just going to get smaller as I age, and I can do more now than I ever have been able to do before.
[00:15:39] It doesn't mean that it always feels comfortable or easy. Often it doesn't, but I do have a much greater capacity now and actually, sorry, just to go back a bit in terms of the timeline. I think we're still working together when I restarted rollerblading. Um,
[00:15:56] Deb (2): Yeah oh my god I remember,
[00:15:58] Sam: yeah. I was like, this is a thing that brought me joy when I was a child. I'm going to go get some polar blades and try it out. And it was funny because I went to Riverside Park and put on my polar blades and stood up and basically, like, immediately fell backwards onto my tailbone, on my butt. And, that is a fall you want to try to avoid as much as possible. After that, I went out and got, what's called crash shorts. I think that they're mostly used in roller derby, but, basically they're just like patting all over your butt and your thighs because I thought, oh, you know, I need to be able to fall while I'm relearning to do this, but I want to do it in a way that it's safer.
[00:16:40] And so it was interesting once I got the crash shorts and started rollerblading, I didn't fall and I got better quickly, because I felt safe enough to take the risks that you need to improve your skill level. I just think that's also a lovely, example of the kinds of things that we can do and the resources we can use to help ourselves feel safe enough to do the things that bring us joy. Um, I think actually you, now that I think about it, I think you were the one who were like, Oh, have you heard of crash shorts? And I was like, what are you talking about? So I think that actually that credit goes to you. Thanks.
[00:17:22] Deb (2): Yeah. There is a lot of research, you know, both in older populations, that fear I, and I talked to a lot of my clients about this, when we have fear that changes our motor path.
[00:17:34] So we are more likely to fall. We are less likely to move in a fluid way. I did roller skating during the pandemic and yes, falling was a part of it and feeling comfortable falling then means that constant threat of fear isn't as scary, right? I think I might've even sent you those, like those little turtle pillows or whatever, like that you like strap on this pillow and it's like an animal.
[00:18:01] There's so many things that you can buy. I mean, There's something awesome about capitalism in the way there's always some product out there that will help us feel more safe. But in some ways it's like the placebo effect. We know people feel better when they take a blue pill versus a red pill and a bigger pill versus a smaller pill or a more expensive pill versus a less expensive pill. There's studies that prove that. So yeah, having some padded shorts. Absolutely. Of course that'll make you also not fall as much or at all. That's really cool.
[00:18:40] Sam: Yeah, it was kind of incredible.
[00:18:42] Deb (2): And what I liked about this process with you is, you know, I would not have picked rollerblading. Is not fun for me. Um, but I love that right where I what feels great about movement? What do you remember? What would you like to revisit or revivify? You know, and you just were like this, this is what I want to do.
[00:19:03] And I was like, yes, okay. What do you need to do to do that? There are multiple steps. So it's like finding safety in each step just increases the neuroplastic process that you are safe and capable and dynamic and alive and all of the things. And then you got to experience the emotions, you know, and if you'd been like, I tried it and you know, it wasn't it, we would just move on to something else.
[00:19:37] But I love that that got to be back into your life in a way that feels really good and also folded into this mind body practice.
[00:19:45] Sam: Yeah, I think that was a really useful experience or experiment to have conducted during our work together. It was just like the embodiment of all of this work that we had done and an incredible thing to be able to do to go from feeling like I couldn't take the stairs in Riverside Park to like racing around in my rollerblades around Riverside Park, right? And having a really fun time. Yeah. I can also do things like go on pretty challenging hikes now, with a lot of elevation.
[00:20:19] And the last time I did 1, I was like, maybe I'll get those, like, hiker poles or whatever they're called, before I do it again, I am going to get some., I think those will just help me feel a little safer going down. Right. I don't know that they will necessarily mean that I am safer, but if I feel safer than that is key.
[00:20:40] Yeah, basically, I think The biggest change is that I now am happy to try out new things or try out doing things that I used to do and be open to whatever the experience is and including the experience going well. Also knowing that my body doesn't need to, to perform perfectly, whatever that means, doing whatever that thing is for it to be a success. For example, I went bouldering a few weeks ago, and while the gym was really crowded, I was on some pretty like beginner routes. And I think I did okay. Like, I don't think I was amazing, but I was like, this is, you know, one of the first times I've done it. I think it was the first time I've ever bouldered and there's much room to improve in my skill level, but I also was just like, actually, this is really fun. I liked that I went and had the experience and things didn't need to go perfectly for me to feel happy that I did it and that I wanna do it again.
[00:21:42] Deb (2): That's amazing. That's just huge. I love that. There was something I wanted to say. Oh, yes, please get hiking poles. I love hiking poles. You don't know the terrain, it's not flat and level ground. It's not planned, right? It's just nature. Nature is nature, right? I'm short so I love them because whatever, even when they build steps in, it's always for like men or tall people. They are never the right depth for me. They're always too far. So sometimes you do, you need to reach beyond your capacity for your muscles to like, feel like they're safe. Hold your body weight, maybe on one leg as you descend. So they just give you another point of contact with the ground. And just that sense of I can touch the ground. There's something here that supports me allows your, your nervous system to relax and your body to relax. Because you're not just hanging out in the air on one leg, trying to figure it out, which as you then, if you do climbing and whatever that capacity to be in that liminal, like unknown space will grow.
[00:22:55] And also like we have different capacities to be with the unknown at different times. So, depending on the day, depending on your mood, depending on the weather, depending on so many things, like who you're hiking with, like our capacity expands and contracts all the time. And that's really, really normal.
[00:23:13] So I just love a hiking pole. That's just my advertisement for that. In some ways it's, I I've talked on this podcast before about like when I had hurt my knee when I was having acute knee pain and I was using a cane. It wasn't that I had to have a cane. It was like the cane gave me this sense of connection with the ground. I'm not using a cane now. I don't need it. But in that time where I had needed it, it was so helpful. And I knew why it was helpful. And I allowed that sense of extra assistance or whatever, just extra, I don't even want to call it extra assistance, just like that sense of connection with safety to be really important to me because I think we often get messages of shame, right?
[00:23:54] We get messages of like, we shouldn't need that. We should be able to do it on our own. And I was like, well, this is me doing it on my own. Giving my nervous system what it needs to feel more safe so I can do the activity that I'm enjoying or loving or need to do even. And I think that that's important.
[00:24:13] And so that can be things like. slowing down our pace. Or challenging ourselves to move faster. Like it can be all kinds of different things. What I'm hearing you say about yourself is now you have this sense of self trust about your body. And then you can listen from that base. And then adjust as needed. So like bouldering in the gym when it's really crowded might feel different than bouldering in the gym when it's empty.
[00:24:40] Sam: Yeah, I think I suspect it does feel pretty different. I suspect it would feel a little bit easier or more easeful rather if it were not so crowded. I remember walking into that gym and being like, oh, it's so crowded and feeling like some temptation to just walk back out.
[00:24:57] And then being like, you know what, we'll just see how this goes, realizing that the things that my brain predicts could happen often don't. And being open to things going differently. I also love what you said about having that extra connection to the ground, helping you feel you know, safer to do to do the thing.
[00:25:19] I'm remembering now when I saw people on that particular hike, there are all sorts of people who had hiking poles. I mean, all sorts of ages and people, different body types and, what I did notice is that whoever had hiking poles seem to be a more experienced hiker. And like, people who probably did it fairly frequently.
[00:25:41] I think Really useful to think about to like, you know, getting the support that I need to feel safer so I can continue doing the things I want to do and continuing to do things that, you know, might feel more and more challenging having that extra support helps you feel safe enough to actually expand your capacity.
[00:26:02] Deb (2): Yeah. And I think there's something about feeling prepared for the unknown
[00:26:08] actually completely prepared. Like you can't know what you don't know, but you can even just what you had said, which is, which I can't even remember exactly what you said, which was that moment when you were going to maybe not walk into the gym, but you said, what, we'll just see what happens. And there's different risk levels.
[00:26:26] Sam: Yeah. We'll see how this goes.
[00:26:27] Deb (2): We'll see how this goes. When you're on the top of a mountain, it's hard to be like, we'll see how this goes.
[00:26:36] I've been on a top of a few mountains where I've been like, I live here now because I don't want to go down um, yeah, I remember getting down the mountain in Iceland and telling my guide. And I know that I've told this story on the podcast, but my guide, who is like this lovely, Oh my God. Amazing woman, Mountaineer, who's my age, right?
[00:27:02] So in her fifties or sixties, like a mountain goat, she just would like hop around and she was fantastic. And she goes up and down these mountains all the time. And, you know, because these steps were built for Vikings and I am more like a dwarf, they were not built for same body and, you know, so I had to go down at a pace that I felt safe in because I knew that, my body needed me to do that. But also at the same time, I was like, well, I really don't live on this mountain. Like I am going to get down. And that's what I told her. I was like, I need you to go away from me, stop hovering and just trust that I'm getting down this mountain and you won't have to carry me and I'm going to be okay.
[00:27:49] But that also means I need nobody to worry around me and I'm just going to take it the way that I take it. And if I have to stop, I'm going to stop. So it's like, yeah, don't, Abandon me, like somebody remembered that I'm here, but also just trust that I know what I'm doing. Trust that I know how to take care of myself.
[00:28:09] And in that instant, I know that she was doing her job, but I also just had to tell her like, go away. Which was a kind of a, yeah, it makes total sense to feel powerful, to feel, embodied enough to say that to her and also really believe like, oh, yeah, I'm getting down this mountain.
[00:28:28] I mean, I got down Kilimanjaro. I'm going to get down this mountain. I get down every mountain. I climb up, or I don't go. That's my rule with myself. I hear that with people when they think about going somewhere or doing something, they're like, Oh, my God, I can go and do it, but I'm worried about getting back or I'm worried about one part of the journey.
[00:28:51] And I'm always like, well, what is it that you need to feel safe? And sometimes it is just the permission to go at your own pace and to stop when you need. And when we have to do it in a certain way that looks like everybody else, then yeah, you're kind of setting yourself up for failure. This is about increasing that sense of, of self connection and being like, yeah, I really know myself, I really know what I need. I know how to have fun and I'm willing to try. And I love that, and what I'm hearing is that you keep expanding on it.
[00:29:24] Sam: Yes, that that's definitely become like an important practice for me. And it's not something that I'm constantly always practicing. It's, but I do iterate over time. And our work together has been a great reminder for me. I have all this evidence that I was able to go from, you know, point A to point G, basically. I was able to take all of these steps and, you know, they weren't necessarily easy or useful, but my body was totally capable of doing that.
[00:29:56] And that's just like really life changing because the experiences I'd had before that were that I was just going to go Backwards and people, you know, people often tell you, things are just going to get worse and you're going to be able to do fewer and fewer things as you get older.
[00:30:15] Sam: And while I'm sure my, my body definitely is going to change over time. I now trust that I will be able to do more things rather than fewer things, and maybe I won't do them in exactly the way that, you know, is, you know, Advertised in athletic sports magazines or whatever, but I'll still be able to do them.
[00:30:39] And 1 thing I wanted to say about your example of coming down from the mountain in Iceland is the sense of self connection, and your ability to take care of yourself. Like, I think it is. It's really useful to be like, I'm here to take care of myself rather than manage everyone else's, like, feelings and worries about me.
[00:30:56] Like, my focus is actually taking care of myself. I know how to do that. And I don't want or need the distraction of, having to manage somebody else's feelings and concerns about me just because, the way I'm doing it looks different than the way they're doing it.
[00:31:11] Deb (2): Oh, thank you for reflecting that back, because that really is a powerful piece. I'm remembering that you sent me a text message after you'd gone to a concert. Do you remember that?
[00:31:22] Sam: Oh yeah. Yeah. I think what you're referring to is, yeah, I went to, a Janelle Monae concert in Brooklyn, maybe like a year ago now. And I went sort of last minute. Someone I knew had a, had an extra ticket. I think I found out about it the day beforehand, but the tickets were standing tickets. I remember at the time being like, Oh, okay. Yeah. But I love to nominate. So I'm going to go. And previously when I got into concerts, I was like, I have to be able to sit because of my body's capacity. Because I have had some like POTS like symptoms with, you know, blood pooling and my Legs and feet, historically standing has been pretty hard for me. So I avoided the standing tickets.
[00:32:07] Anyway, I went and I had a fantastic time. I danced for like 3 hours. I ended up going with somebody I'd never met before. I knew their spouse, but I didn't really know them. And we just had a really fabulous time together.
[00:32:21] And that is also something I probably would not have done, a few years ago, going to a concert with someone I, I barely knew. But yeah, afterwards, I was like, Man, that is incredible that I was able to do that, you know, for so, for like 10 years prior to our work together, I had just thought like, I'm never going to be able to be that person who's in the pit and like dancing and like that close to the musicians. But I was, and I am, and it was fantastic. And I would totally do it again.
[00:32:52]
[00:32:52] Deb (2): That's really powerful. Besides going like my body is capable of doing it. It's like, I'm now the person who can, um, which doesn't mean like you need to do it for every single show, but like the fact that now there's this knowledge inside of you, and that that story can just drop away.
[00:33:11] Sam: Absolutely. Yeah. I think that, you know, I'd still probably prefer to have an actual seat available, and then I can like, still get up and dance, but I think it was really useful to be like, actually, this is a musician. I really, really want to see. And I'm going to go and see, see how it goes. And now I have that as a shining example, that if there's a concert, I really want to go to that, the fact that maybe there's only a standing ticket available does not need to stop me. Like I can still go and have a truly amazing time. That was like such a gift.
[00:33:45] Deb (2): + That's fantastic. And that's one of those, reparative experiences, right? Those exposure experiences, and we can't always plan them, so I just love to like, be in your life, they happen, and then we add them into that evidence sheet, right?
[00:34:01] We really now know something different and new about you. That's just so significant to kind of add into this self concept to add into this mind, body experience. What I love though, is you're like, I'm willing to see what, what happens. So it's not like it has to go perfectly otherwise it's all ruined.
[00:34:22] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. Like if I gone to that concert and like had to leave halfway through, I think I still would have been delighted that I'd been able to go and see, someone perform who is basically the hottest person in the entire world. You know? And I love what you said about the reparative experiences and how we, you know, Often can't or don't plan them like they, they come up in life and, you know, I could have said, Oh, actually, like, I really wish I could do that, but I can't because, I haven't been able to in the past. But instead I was able to be like, I don't know how this is gonna go. Uh, but I really want to find out.
[00:35:03] Deb (2): And sometimes we like find out and and sometimes it's hard and we have feelings. And, you know, I'm always in conversation with my body, my body, sometimes it's like, I can do the same walk one day and then the next day it's hard. And I'm just like, okay, body, I love you for whatever reason today just feels different.
[00:35:23] But I know yesterday felt different in a, of course, the way that I like and prefer it was like, so I'm sure I'll have it again. And there's just something that takes the edge off for me. Then I'm not just like waiting for the shoe to drop or waiting for like the magic spell to disappear, right? Every single time, it's always the opportunity for me to be loving and curious and, um, and also, and also challenging myself.
[00:35:54] The other day I challenged myself, I was walking through Manhattan and I was like, let's see how fast I can go. Which is usually not my orientation. And I walked really fast and I felt like really energized and my body was like, huh? Okay. I didn't know we could do that. And I was like, we don't have to do it all the time.
[00:36:13] You know? Cause sometimes you're just like, everybody's walking so fast and then you feel like, Oh my God, I gotta go so fast. Now I actually believe like I have, something more available to me. And, uh, And especially if it could be playful and also I choose for me a big part of what gives me the buy in is when I'm choosing.
[00:36:34] Sam: I totally agree with that. Like, I think that if I feel rushed by other people or external forces, or like, pressed into doing something or coerced, then, you know, it tends to not go nearly as well as when I'm like, actually, I'm going to try this out for myself and see how it goes. And like you said, do it in a way that feels like, playful and that you have this base to, to figure it out for yourself rather than, feeling like you don't have other options.
[00:37:05] Deb (2): Which just reminds me of like gym class and kind of how terrible it is.
[00:37:10] Sam: Oh,
[00:37:10] I hated
[00:37:12] gym class so much.
[00:37:15] Deb (2): Yeah, because it's not at all really about that sense of self connection and empowerment in our own bodies. It's about like doing what people tell you to do and then competing. And I'm always last.
[00:37:25] Sam: Totally and like comparing yourself to everyone else or be, you know, even your PE teacher can just actively comparing you to the other kids around you.
[00:37:34] Yeah,
[00:37:35] Deb (2): I have so many other things that I want to talk about. I think that we should talk again. What I would like to do is bring in your professional orientation. Also, as somebody who works with AuDHD people and maybe we can have more of an expansive conversation about neuro spiciness and overlaps between sensory sensitivity and body pain, because I feel like those conversations are really important to have. But this conversation was, is about you and your personal journey. And there's so many things to celebrate. And I know that this conversation will help a lot other people connect the dots for themselves, right? They're going to be able to hear what you had said in the stories that you had shared and apply them to themselves. One last question though, is in mind body work there, there can be an aspect of like learning how to experience emotions through that lens of safety, right?
[00:38:32] And so getting to understand the relationship between emotions and physical sensations. And I was wondering if there was anything there for you that came up in the work that we did.
[00:38:43] Sam: Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad that you asked about that. I could talk for another hour about that. Honestly. I do think that that was a really major part of our work together.
[00:38:56] I know that when we 1st started working together, I kind of already knew that there were a ton of emotions that I was suppressing and that was, I think, out of like a habit of, I just kind of had to do that in the early part of my life. And then I. You know, I did a lot of work on myself and went through a lot of therapy, but still, like, that remained, and it was present in my personal, interpersonal interactions and my relationships, and I think that was really evident when we first started working together in the relationship that I was in at the time, especially that I, I didn't feel safe changing things. I didn't feel safe feeling the emotions that were really there underneath all of that, about where I was at in life and, um, how I was spending my time. And, I think that that was something that came about more gradually in our work that I felt, you know, safer and safer over time to actually be like, Like face those emotions.
[00:39:58] Sam: And when I say face them, I don't mean like face the consequences of them, but just like actually be able to, to look at them in a way that I was able to then be honest with myself. Like, actually, yes, I do feel this way and that's okay. And it makes sense that I feel that way. And it took me quite a bit longer after that to be like, okay, the emotions are information.
[00:40:22] What do I want to do with that information? What actions do I feel prepared to take? But I, I definitely feel like that was really key in our work together that, Having the capacity to actually face and look at my emotions and like validate them was really freeing. And I don't know that I would have been able to do that without our work together.
[00:40:46] And I think that that was Really key to my longer term pain recovery. You know, I still experienced pain. I think I told you this morning I woke up and I felt like I was in pretty, acute pain. But I also was like, I'm not going to feel like this probably in a couple hours, I'll feel differently.
[00:41:07] And it did actually get me thinking like, Oh, are there emotions that I am suppressing that I need to be feeling right now? And kind of went through that process with myself and this morning. I don't know that I could put what those emotions are into words, but it felt like I started feeling much safer in my body, um, once I started recognizing, like, maybe there's some emotional stuff behind this, and that's okay, and we are, it's safe to feel those things.
[00:41:37] So, I think that process of being able to feel my emotions rather than suppress them was even evident this morning. Thank you for that, Deb.
[00:41:46] Deb (2): You are so welcome. And thank you for sharing that story. I know I say it a lot, but I don't think it can ever be expressed too much is that we are always human.
[00:41:56] We always feel things. This is an ongoing experience. There's never some kind of place where we ascend from the human experience. And if we're in relationship with ourselves and the world and other people and intimate partners, like we're going to have feelings that need to be witnessed and connected with through that lens of safety otherwise, yeah, our bodies are going to be like, uh, Hey, you know, Uh, I, I need your attention. So I love you were able to open the door to that and be curious and just to make space and not be like in a rush and not be like, Oh my God, I gotta fix this. Right. I sense that there is this spaciousness and trust that what you woke up feeling was going to change and that you weren't intensely worried about it.
[00:42:44] It didn't capture your attention and send you down. a catastrophizing spiral. And I think in the work that I do, I'm always like, when we can stop that kind of expansion of fear, where it just starts to take over, we get so much more of our freedom back and our agency and our ability to attend to what needs tending to.
[00:43:08] There's always something that needs tending to because we're human.
[00:43:11] Sam: That's the truth. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just laughing. Cause I like what you said about there's never a moment where we just ascend the human experience. There are always emotions, and things to be tended to. And I think there was still this sort of belief when we've, before we started working together where I was like, Oh, I just need to find the answer to whatever this problem is. And then there will be no other problems. There will be no other issues, this will solve it. And now I'm just like, yeah, there are going to be things that come up that I'm going to be dealing with every day. And that's fine. That's part of life.
[00:43:49] Deb (2): Yeah. Also pain is a great motivator in a lot of ways. And as you said, it's also information. So it's like without pain, whatever flavor of it. It's like, we wouldn't change.
[00:44:02] Sam: Mm. Mm hmm. It's true. Yeah. Without pain and discomfort, we would be in stasis.
[00:44:10] Deb (2): That always reminds me of the Kelly McGonigal stress, Ted talk where she did research on stress, and talks about how we need stress to grow, physiologically we need stress for certain developmental stages to happen.
[00:44:26] They happen through stress and I'm like, okay what is this developmental stage? It's again, that sense of nothing has gone wrong here. What is it that I need to know? What is it that I'm paying attention to? And of course we're not a car and we can't hook ourselves up into the little machine that tells us what the code is. We need to have our own way of just getting curious and doing that self inquiry. And, you know, oftentimes we, we know, we know a little bit and like, if we're not creating that pathway for self connection, then like that knowing never really gets integrated,. Is there anything else that you want to share?
[00:45:07] I don't want to wrap it up, but I know we both have time constraints and nobody really wants to listen to a four hour conversation with us. So, is there any,
[00:45:17] Sam: but we're fascinating what, um,
[00:45:20] Deb (2): actually, I will say, maybe there are 5 people who want to listen to a 4 hour conversation. Right.
[00:45:26] Right. Yeah.
[00:45:27] Sam: I can't think of anything right now, that needs to be shared in this particular episode. I would just want to reinforce for whoever is listening that I think keeping in an open mind is key, as cliche as that sounds. You know, as somebody who is very like, I need science, I need things to like, prove what's going on. I went into our work together, like, semi skeptical, but also knowing that like, I didn't know everything and I didn't want to know everything.
[00:46:00] To be in a position where I know everything and there was so much more for me to learn and there always is. And so I think it helps that I was like open minded enough that I was like, okay, maybe I have these questions, but, I'm going to go into this work because I want to see what's going to happen and so I think keeping an open mind is really key for just like, starting to do the work, but also being, willing to have stops and starts and your recovery too. Yeah, this morning I was in a lot of pain and I still had that open mind yeah, this isn't going to be how it is forever.
[00:46:38] So I think that that is a really useful approach all throughout life. I think that's one of the key messages that I want to reiterate, and I'm really delighted that we've had this conversation, Deb, and by all the work we did together. And I look forward to being able to come back on your podcast and have a slightly different conversation in the future too.
[00:47:03] Deb (2): That sounds great. Thank you so, so much for being here.
[00:47:08] Sam: Oh, one more thing is, um whoever's listening, if you haven't worked with Deb already, you should work with Deb because she's amazing and wonderful. And yeah, give yourself the gift of being with her working with Deb. Okay. I'm done now.
[00:47:22] Deb (2): Oh my god. I'm now hiding.
[00:47:24] Sam: Hiding.
[00:47:26] Deb (2): I was like, as you were talking, I was like, what does my face even look like? I'm going to receive that though. That is part of my chapter, which is to be able to receive people's Reflections.
[00:47:40] Thank you. And it has been a pleasure. It is always such a joy to have been a witness to all of the ways in which you've transformed your life and your self concept and your perception of your body's capacity and by your body's capacity, I mean, just like your capacity,
[00:48:01] our bodies aren't separate from ourselves. So it's just been such a pleasure to be on this journey with you. So stay tuned. We are going to have part two of this conversation at some time in the near future.