Sean Hershey, LCSW is a therapist who helps people use mind-body work to end chronic pain and truly learn to be themselves. In this episode, he and I are talking about growing up queer, navigating symptoms, symptom recovery and meeting this moment in time in history. You might be having amplified physical + emotional pain right now in response to the onslaught of political shenanigans that have been happening this month and also might have been growing for you since the election or even before then. You aren't alone and we've hoping this conversation helps you understand a little bit more the links between your physical sensations and what's happening in the world. Acknowledging and befriending fear is one part of creating spaciousness and safety. And being rebelliously self affirming, knowing that your life is valid and even exquisite, regardless of any opinions of governments, institutions, family or anyone is another way to begin to reclaim a sense of self efficacy, subconscious security and build life sustaining connections. Stay tuned for more conversations with The Curiosity Cure podcast.
Mindbody therapist Sean Hershey, LCSW and I are talking about growing up queer, navigating symptoms, symptom recovery and meeting this moment in time in history. You might be having amplified physical + emotional pain right now in response to the onslaught of political shenanigans that have been happening this month and also might have been growing for you since the election or even before then.
You aren't alone and we've hoping this conversation helps you understand a little bit more the links between your physical sensations and what's happening in the world. Acknowledging and befriending fear is one part of creating spaciousness and safety. And being rebelliously self affirming, knowing that your life is valid and even exquisite, regardless of any opinions of governments, institutions, family or anyone is another way to begin to reclaim a sense of self efficacy, subconscious security and build life sustaining connections.
Stay tuned for more conversations with The Curiosity Cure podcast.
Sean Hershey is a therapist who helps people use mind-body work to end chronic pain and truly learn to be themselves. He is currently accepting new individual therapy and coaching clients!
https://www.mindbodymedicineforchronicpain.com/
https://www.instagram.com/my_gay_therapist/
[00:00:00] Welcome to the curiosity cure podcast. I'm your host, Deb Malkin, master certified life coach, body worker, hypnotist trained in pain reprocessing by the pain psychology center, queer elder fat human on planet earth here to help you evoke the power of simple neuroplasticity techniques rooted in shame free curiosity so you can feel more better Transcribed more of the time in the body you have today and build the rich, full life that you want to live.
[00:00:39] A quick disclaimer, this podcast is not a replacement for medical care. I am here to provide insights and techniques that can complement your healthcare journey, but always consult with your healthcare provider for personalized advice.
[00:00:56] Hello, my feelers and healers. It's Deb and I am bringing to you one of many continuing conversations about mind body practices, how to meet this moment of political terror and, I don't know, kind of socially engineered insanity. Is that a good way to describe it? And how to apply mind body techniques and practices and just the conversations that I'm having with colleagues who I feel are aligned in this work and also hoping that it helps you find some spaciousness, some peace, some practices that you can apply to yourself that help you transform the experience that you are having in this moment in time.
[00:01:52] You are not alone. We are right here with you. And I just want you to know that even though we may not be able to affect political change in this singular moment. There are a lot of things that we can do to help support our mind and our body to help us maintain our physical and emotional well being, or at least not slide down the slippery slope.
[00:02:23] This is a starting conversation. among many more that I'm going to be having. Thank you for listening and Happy Valentine's Day. I love you.
[00:02:36] Deb: Hello, Sean, my new friend, my new mind body bestie. I am so excited that you're here talking with me on the curiosity cure podcast. So for all of my feelers and healers, I'm just going to have you introduce yourself, who you are, who you help, and then we're gonna get into, the topic of the moment.
[00:03:00] Sean: Awesome. Yeah, well, I'm so glad to be here. And I'll say to all your listeners, Deb and I just met in person for the first time, last week. At the 92nd Street Y in Manhattan, it was Nicole Sachs book launch, and she was, it was her, Christina Sarno, and Lisa Eisenpresser. And it was so fun to meet so many of the MindBody people I've just seen online, in person, one of whom was Deb.
[00:03:27] And then we got to hang out afterwards, and Deb gave me a ride home. It was a great time. But okay, who am I? My name is Sean Hershey. I've been a therapist for 10 years. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I found this mind body work for myself, like, two and a half ish years ago, I would say now, and, um, it, it was so helpful for me, like, my life is so different now, because, so I had a I mean, I've had so many different mind body symptoms over the course of my life, but the heavy hitters were IBS and hip pain.
[00:04:04] And I, you know, got into doing this work, was following Nicole Sachs and following Dr. Sarno's stuff, you know, reading his books and did a lot of this work for myself. And my chronic pain has just improved so much. I mean, I'm, I'm at a point now where like, Like, some days I'm like, I have no chronic pain and other days I'm like, I'm a work in progress forever, which is, that's how it is.
[00:04:33] Deb: That is the arc of the, the hero's journey, I feel, to land somewhere in between those things. Yeah.
[00:04:41] Sean: Right. Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, the fact that my pain is gone a lot of the times means that I don't have chronic pain anymore. It's so, um, life changing for me that I can just go through life and not be scared of my body and not be scared of my symptoms and be less scared of my emotions and less scared of just being myself.
[00:05:00] That I was like, okay, like I have to offer this to clients. So starting last year, I started like advertising that I do this kind of work. Now I offer this to clients.
[00:05:11] Deb: I love that. Do you draw a particular, kind of client?
[00:05:17] Sean: Oh, well, like I'm, I'm gay. I love working with other queer people.
[00:05:21] That's my, yeah.
[00:05:23] Deb: So shocked. Oh my goodness, I'm clutching my pearls. Okay. Yes.
[00:05:30] Sean: Exactly. That's my, that's my probably, well, I wouldn't even say favorite demographic. It totally depends. Some people you really just have like a connection with, or I really have a connection with some people less so.
[00:05:45] I guess maybe the best way to put it is I love working with people who are ready to make like actual changes and people who have passed the point of desperation in their healing journey.
[00:05:54] And they're like, I've I'm ready to try something else. Like I've tried all the cures. I've tried all the all the ways to physically manipulate my body in order to feel better. And I'm full in, or at least, at least one foot solidly in, like, I want to try something emotional and psychological because that's where the good work happens.
[00:06:15] Deb: I love that. I'm obviously teasing about being shocked about being queer because I think that is maybe, you know, a common theme in some of my podcasts about my queerness. It's so interesting when we come from a very like heteronormative society and world, when you're queer, you can create a lot of spaciousness for people who are not queer, but then there's something that, you know, if I'm coming to you as a therapist, there's something that you know and understand about my life that I find is really helpful to kind of cut through, like, I don't, one, I'm not worried about judgment per se, but there's the unspoken stuff, the ways in which queerness has informed the sense of tension and fear, the way we're talking about a different type of judgment that might come from now the government or our religion, you know, so those kinds of like understandings I find to be so helpful. So when people are informed on a deep level in that way, I just feel like then there's this different kind of connection or meeting. There's a sense of, I'm not a stranger to you. And that's what I love about what you have to offer because I do find in our mind body world. Not that there's not queer people. But that there's not necessarily overt conversation about how, pain might be experienced in different communities and especially communities who are under a certain kind of social threat. Um, so I find it's very empowering and helpful.
[00:08:04] I'm so glad to meet, all of the mind body people who are doing this work, who also have come through their own healing experience to be able to offer that then too. Yeah,
[00:08:17] Sean: can I share a brief story about that? Like what you're talking about? Cool. My very 1st job out of social work school. I was a therapist in a clinic. It was near Union Square in New York. There were a number of gay male clients that I had. When I would have a new gay client. We would always talk about identity at the beginning, but it was very focused on the client. Like, part of our intake was like, you know, what are the identities you hold that are important to you?
[00:08:44] Tell me about that. Which was, you know, that's great. And when I had another gay client, I would always disclose, like, I identify as gay myself, just so you're, aware of that. And I would do it in what felt like a very professional way to me. And I would say, like, you know, my experience is, of course, going to be different than yours, but I just want you to know that, like, we share that so that you know that and we can talk openly about that.
[00:09:10] At least from my perspective, it seems like clients were very put at ease by that. So my supervisor, I had a social work supervisor who was straight. He was a straight black man. He was great. He was a really wonderful supervisor and we also did have this conversation where like I told him that I would do that and he was weird about it.
[00:09:31] He was like, why are you disclosing that to your clients? Why would you tell them that? Like, and then he got into kind of like, I still remember this so clearly because I was so put off by it. He got into like analyzing me like, Maybe this is your own shame and discomfort and you want to tell them to mitigate the shame and discomfort that you have around your sexuality.
[00:09:54] And I was like, I mean, maybe? But the intention is just Because I know, from my perspective as a queer person, if I'm sitting across from a therapist week after week and I don't know if they're queer or not, but I think they might be, that's going to be playing around and around and around in my head where I'm like, Is this person gay or not?
[00:10:15] Oh God, I need to know. I'm like, I just know that that's how, that's how I would think. And I know that's how a lot of other queer people would think too. So I'm like, I just want to put it out on the table so it's not a question mark. But my supervisor really didn't get that. And I really did question myself, like, am I doing something wrong?
[00:10:32] And then years later, I went to a training at, I don't know if you're familiar with Ackerman Institute for the Family, but they're like really well respected in family therapy in New York. And I went to a training there that was all and they had just undergone this huge anti racism project. And one of the things that they did was they switched up their intake so that they did this thing called social location where every therapist would disclose not just their sexuality, they would disclose like a bunch of identities at the beginning.
[00:11:02] And they had found that that actually really helped build trust with the client and build rapport and build a relationship and deepen the work. And I was like, well, damn, I've been doing that since I started. I learned more about how to do it well and how to do it with multiple identities in the training I did.
[00:11:21] But I was like, good for me for doing that right with at least my community from the beginning.
[00:11:29] Deb: Good for you. I do think there is a power of having a shared experience. And now I'm going to talk about this from a mind body lens, not everybody who works in mind body medicine needs to have their own personal story, but we often do.
[00:11:48] And. I find that that sense of understanding something on a deep level, like how our mind, our emotions, our ways that we deal with stress can turn into physical pain and symptoms, Being able to understand that and have transformed it for ourselves, I find helps me hold that space and truth and belief and understanding for my clients, you know, and so I want to hear a little bit more about, your insights about your pain recovery journey and maybe like what you want people to take away from, from that, from even just understanding that you had IBS, you had chronic symptoms and now you do not have chronic symptoms.
[00:12:38] Sean: Yeah, it's hard to tell this story because I feel like every time I go to like Conceptualize or tell my story. I'm like, it's so long and so big. I don't know how to summarize it because really like when you think of like talking about chronic pain, that's one thing. But when you think about, like, talking about, listening to your body and understanding the signals coming from your body, it's like, that's basically your whole life, you know, like, a lot is covered under there.
[00:13:08] So, that said, let me give an abridged version of like, what the important parts were. I I had like headaches as a kid. The IBS started right after college when I graduated from college and was like, you know I had a job and like living quote unquote like adult life for the first time. But the hip pain actually started before that even though like this I mean they since I have had this into imperative, you know, they come they go they wax they wane the hip pain Started when I was 19, right, right as I was coming out as gay.
[00:13:47] Did I make that connection at that time? Absolutely not. Did it take until I was 34, I want to say? Maybe 33? Yes, it did. Which is like, because we're not taught to make those connections. Like, in our society, we're not taught that. So I was like, oh, the hip pain is obviously from stretching or walking. I must have injured myself and I believed that, you know, 10 years into it, because what else did I know?
[00:14:14] You know, I really didn't know this that, how connected physical pain on psychological factors. I was dealing with these symptoms. The IBS at a low level by the time that I found this work The hip pain was, had eclipsed the IBS at, at that time when I first found this two and a half years ago.
[00:14:34] A friend of mine had done an Omega retreat with Nicole Sachs. And she was like, you should look into this website. So I go to the website. And was like, oh yeah, wow, like if this is real and if this could really work for me, like, wow, that would be awesome. It was very exciting. I still remember it was October of 2022.
[00:15:01] Then I got into it. I started journaling. I started reading. I started listening to all different podcasts from all different people. And, and it was hard to believe at first, you know, because it took me a while to really. experience any kind of Okay, let me put it this way from the very beginning I remember the first day that I looked into this I was walking to the gym that night and my hip just like felt Looser than usual like a little less painful a little looser and I was like Wait, really?
[00:15:34] Like maybe there's something to this.
[00:15:36] Deb: Oh, I love that. Just like a little bit of inkling from the inside of you saying you're on the right track.
[00:15:44] Sean: Exactly.
[00:15:45] Deb: And it's like, of course, you think it's stuff you did at the gym or overstretching or not stretching enough or walking or not walking enough or walking the wrong way.
[00:15:58] I studied biomechanics and boy, nothing flares your pain like being really, really fiddly about where your bones and alignment and like everything is. Like constantly, you know, assessing your body parts for the, being in the right location. Nothing more, you know, more exciting for a perfectionist than you know, trying to have perfect alignment, uh, and teaching your nervous system that you are never safe and that you can never relax and that you are never. Okay.
[00:16:31] Sean: That was
[00:16:34] Deb: part of my thing. And so, yeah, you took that walk to the gym. You started to kind of incorporate even subconsciously, right. You start to hear something different and start to feel something different.
[00:16:49] I have a question that didn't think about before, but, you know, there's a lot of emphasis on gay male culture on like physique and looks and what your body is like. And I was wondering if there was any tension there for you, if that was a thing that was something
[00:17:06] Oh
[00:17:08] Sean: yeah, every gay man who I know has tension around that, myself, definitely included, for sure.
[00:17:14] For sure. I mean, that's a huge, like, toxicity in the gay male culture is like looking a certain way, being muscular, being young, being fit. There's so, I mean, there's so many, like, uh, categories that gay men, like, organize themselves into, like, twinks, bears, otters, jocks, uh, tops, bottoms, even. Like, there's, there's, it's all very, like, hyper sexualized and, like, In the gay male culture, there's a lot of emphasis on the body and what it looks like.
[00:17:48] So there's a ton of tension there. I mean, yeah, like so much of like The status, quote unquote, of a gay man in the gay community is about like, what do you look like, you know? So there's a ton of attention there, but what it really is is like status anxiety. Do I matter? Do people care about me? Will people be interested in me?
[00:18:08] Do people love me? Will people like me? Like that's what it's really about, but what it comes across as is like I'm ugly, I'm fat, I'm not hot enough, I'm, you know, all that stuff. There's also a huge emphasis on um, not being feminine, which is, I mean that's, that's in the straight world, that's in the gay world, that's um, that's huge and incredibly toxic.
[00:18:35] And hard to unlearn, you know, and a lot of this stuff has been part of my emotional journey is, um,
[00:18:43] Deb: Say more, say more.
[00:18:44] Sean: Well, okay, okay, yeah, yeah, so, so let me, yeah, picking back up with the story, let me just say, like, I'll just give the highlights of, like, the things that were sort of most important for me, in terms of emotional healing.
[00:18:54] I mean, the most important thing, first of all, was just to really internalize the basics, like, emotional and psychological pain manifests in the body. And it may feel like there's something wrong with your bones, it may feel like there's like a parasite, or there's an overgrowth of whatever in your gut, but like, that's not the real problem.
[00:19:17] The real problem is emotional and psychological. And really getting that in my head and really believing it. That, and it is true. You know, it took me a long time to believe it, but I have come to find Yeah, that is true. So that, that was truly the biggest thing, but from there that opens the door into like, okay Now you have emotional work to do to sort this out.
[00:19:37] And the biggest things for me were like Recognizing that my childhood was, like it was traumatic being gay. I grew up in a Irish Catholic world, in Catholic school, Catholic church, everything in St. Paul, Minnesota. And, um, it like, quote unquote, could have been worse, you know, like I did not grow up in the kind of environment that was like gays go to hell.
[00:20:02] And, um, you know, like I think there's so many horror stories that were really not my life. That said, it was very much the environment where it was like, Oh, gay people are sad, and you should feel bad for them, because their lives are just pathetic. And I really internalized that, you know? Like, and I was so scared to be that, and when I started thinking maybe I am that, that was like, horrifying.
[00:20:30] Um, and just like socially, I was, I didn't fit in. Like, I was someone who was like too feminine to really hang with the boys, not into sports, but like there wasn't like a place for me. And even though I had like a robust circle of people and I had friends and I felt like it was weird because it was very mixed.
[00:20:52] I felt like loved in my community for sure. But I also felt very, very awkward and very out of place. And like, like there was so, I mean, the basic message was like, there's something wrong with me. So that kind of mixed, you know, they say in the chronic pain world, it's the conflict that kills. Like, if it were just like, all of this was terrible, it might be easier for me to just be like, screw that, I'm moving on.
[00:21:19] But I had a nuanced, complex relationship with my childhood that was like, oh, it's good, but I also feel so off all the time. I mean, that itself is a huge cause of chronic pain, that conflict where you're like, my definition of good, quote unquote, was feeling like there was something wrong with me, and believing that that was good and okay, you know, like, that was a really messed up message.
[00:21:41] So that, that's the first thing that I had to work through that was, that was huge. The second thing for me is like, My family is very, um, like, uptight, and very, like, my mom is very Catholic, and, my dad is very kind of a Christian. And both of them have this very rigid sense of what's good and what's bad, and they really, really tried to, like, shape me into someone that they thought was, like, a good person.
[00:22:14] And it was, like, Cared about others and didn't put themself first and, was nice and kind and, not self centered and certainly not, like, greedy or, um, You know, giving in to any sort of, like, base desires, like, Vain or, materialistic. Like, none of that stuff was allowed in my house at all.
[00:22:34] Like, so, so wrong. And my parents are both very self punishing and moralistic to themselves. So I think they had no other tools to use but to raise me in that same mindset. So I also in that way grew up just like kind of thinking that I was bad, that the body was bad, that emotions are bad, that any kind of basic human drives are bad and therefore need to be covered up, or fixed, or worked out, or pretend they're not there.
[00:23:02] And figuring that out, and working through that, and just being like, I exist and therefore, okay, like just, you got to accept it cause it is what it is. Working through that was huge. And for that, like part two of the work, well, I would say part one of the work I did mostly through using Nicole Sachs' journal speak method, part two of the work I had my own mind body therapist.
[00:23:29] Her name is Liz Wallenstein. Do you know her? Do you know that name? I
[00:23:32] Deb: know who she is. Yeah. I know. I don't think I've ever met her, but she sounds, she seems great.
[00:23:37] Sean: Truly excellent, like really helped me a lot. I worked with her for a while last year, and working with her really helped me to just like be okay with the fact that I was a human being and acknowledge that like, my family actually wasn't okay with that.
[00:23:53] And like, that's where that came from, you know, so, um,
[00:23:57] Deb: and I, I want to interject. Because what happens is they miss out on you.
[00:24:02] Sean: Yeah.
[00:24:03] Deb: And you're so beautiful.
[00:24:05] Sean: Thank you.
[00:24:05] Deb: Lovely. And they, they miss you. And that's, that's very sad for them. That's my take on it.
[00:24:13] Sean: Yeah, no, I thank you for saying that I totally agree and I would even take it one more level They miss out on themselves like they don't know who the hell they are and My both my parents Especially my dad really has severe tms and my mom has like tms flares that come and go Neither of them really, you know, I've gotten into this and I've really pushed it with them and they're, they don't pick it up.
[00:24:40] And my dad is so bad. His life is so limited and the back surgeries but he's, you know, not taking it.
[00:24:48] Deb: I know. It's an interesting kind of, I was going to say cross we have to bear.
[00:24:52] Sean: Yeah, in
[00:24:54] Deb: a
[00:24:55] Sean: way,
[00:24:56] Deb: but like we get to hold that. Yeah. Right. Uh, we get to hold that kind of like, Yes, we know. Yes, we know. You can feel better.
[00:25:06] And you also have to meet us. You have to pick it up. You have to be at least interested or curious. And that could be a hard place to sit, especially when you see people that you love suffering.
[00:25:19] Sean: Yeah, totally.
[00:25:21] Yeah.
[00:25:22] Yeah. That's the new stuff with, with my recovery, I would say.
[00:25:27] Deb: That's really powerful because You know, in some ways, we could work on coming out, we could work on the disconnection with the family, we can work on like building that, that sense of true, authentic self and not have this pain piece.
[00:25:44] Yeah. Not have the piece that's like ties the symptoms in together. I truly believe if you don't really Get that whole education or that whole understanding you could still feel so much better, but then you'll still have this thing called IBS.
[00:26:02] Sean: Agreed.
[00:26:03] Deb: Right, because you would just treat the symptoms differently you would treat them like maybe you as a human is not a problem, but then you would still have this like part of you that's a problem.
[00:26:15] Sean: Yep, absolutely. That's such a good way of putting it, and that's exactly how it felt for me. Even though, on a conscious level, my sexuality of just being gay was no longer really a threat, there was so much else going on under the surface that still felt like a threat. And I needed to do You know, to do the work to realize like that's okay, it doesn't have to be a threat, and to connect that to the pain threat cycle and be like, right, this is why I'm in pain, is because my mind body system is constantly afraid of these threats and letting all of that go has been huge, but I'm thinking, shall we, shall we talk about how to survive the, I
[00:27:01] Deb: was going to say that
[00:27:03] Sean: is
[00:27:04] Deb: that is the perfect segue when we're talking about perceiving and responding to threat. Were in alignment. Now we are in a particular time. And so if you're listening to this in the future, in the far, far, far future, it is 2025. It is the beginning of the Trump administration. There's a lot happening. Apparently we're in the middle of a coup. There are, there are non governmental people doing things, taking over things in the government.
[00:27:36] But the very first thing that happened was taking away protections and rights of transgender people. And, you know, we know what happens next.
[00:27:47] Sean: Um,
[00:27:48] Deb: so what do we do? How do we help ourselves? When, when we have what is an actual threat. You know, not just the perception of threat and danger and I, you know, some of the top down PRT stuff is about like reassessing threat and sometimes it can feel a little gaslighty, like we're, we're talking about threat as if it's just a made up thing, except I don't know, I don't feel like this is very made up.
[00:28:19] Sean: Totally.
[00:28:19] Deb: And at the same time, I can sit here and be like, in this moment, I am not in danger, but then my mind wants to go off to the races and be like, yes, but, and all of these scary things are currently happening and may also continue to happen. So what if I were your client? And I was like a big freak out, not just like, okay, there was the election.
[00:28:44] And I think I had a moment of intense despair of losing what I feel like is the last of my innocence, when he was in office and then all of a sudden all this wild shit went down for the first few days and I was like, Oh, I've never lived through this kind of political experience.
[00:29:02] Sean: Yeah.
[00:29:03] Deb: And because he had been president before, you know, I thought we would have like, whatever kind of ordinary start to a presidency where they have the like peaceful transfer of power and all of those things and now we have what we had and I know people who are having extreme physical responses to what is going on.
[00:29:25] So if I were your client, how would you help me?
[00:29:31] What would you say to that?
[00:29:33] Sean: Yes, I love that. I'm thinking, actually, like, I want to start with myself, because I feel like it's the most important place to start, I actually think, like, like, figuring out yourself so that you can be with others. I really resonate with what you're saying about, like, Is this a real threat, or is it like, Oh, I'm making it up, I'm being dramatic, my nervous system is getting out of control, and I need to calm it down, which happens.
[00:30:04] And that's not what we're dealing with, you know? I think that queer people and probably marginalized people in general are good at translating. Like, we get information from sources that are more mainstream, for example, PRT, Pain Reprocessing Therapy. And then, we can't just totally take it in and make it just easily work for us, you know?
[00:30:27] Like, it's gonna have to be translated a little bit. And that's why I totally relate to what you're saying about, like, we can't gaslight ourselves into thinking like this is not a threat, because it is. And you're also right that right now, you know, I'm sitting here, you're sitting there, and both of us are safe today.
[00:30:44] So there is that. That doesn't mean that we're always going to be safe, you know? So I guess that's the first thing. The second thing is that Something I've noticed a lot since the beginning of this second Trump presidency is, And maybe it's about the communities I travel in, but I don't think so.
[00:31:03] I've noticed this a lot, that people are like, Oh, you know, I'm not so much scared for me, but I'm so worried for X, Y, Z group or X, Y, Z person, and certainly the right wing in the United States hates queer people. That's for sure. And there's certainly a hierarchy to who they hate the most and who they fear the most.
[00:31:26] Like, that's for sure. They, really are afraid of trans and gender nonconforming people. I feel particularly youth, like they're really against that idea. And so, so that's what they hate the most. That said, we all exist on a continuum of that they don't like, like, we're all, we're all in there. But what I've seen is a lot of my queer friends will be saying just like, Oh, like, I'm gay. So, you know, I'm okay for now, but I'm so worried about my trans friends. They're like, Oh, I'm, I'm trans, but I'm so glad to be in New York. I'm not worried for myself because I know the government will protect me, but I'm so worried for people in Texas or Alabama or whatever. And I've seen a lot of, um.
[00:32:11] What I would honestly call denial, that, that you, meaning me, you, everybody who's in the queer community, that we're actually all affected. I think it's really important to hold both like kind of take in one hand the idea that like some people are obviously more affected than others and being able to ally with those people and support those people is incredibly important for those of us who have a little more privilege in the community or who are a little more quote unquote tolerable to the mainstream, less targeted right now, you know, like, I think that's very important for us to Stand with people because lord knows I have heard shit like this before from like cis white gay men like myself I've heard stuff like oh Like we'd be so much quote unquote further along if it weren't for us being lumped in With the trans community stuff like that I've literally heard shit like that and I'm sorry to trigger your audience because that's a really messed up thing to hear But what I'm bringing this up because, we cannot allow ourselves to think that way.
[00:33:15] That's so messed up. We really need to all be in this together, and it's so not okay to think that way. So, in one hand, I think it's important to hold, like, being an ally. And in the other hand, I think it's important to hold, like, this affects Me too. It's not something that like we can act as though oh, this is someone else's problem and I feel bad for them. Or this won't affect me, but I want to help others because that is a form of denial.
[00:33:40] Like, I think sitting with like this, is scary to me. And even if initially maybe you're hiding that fear from yourself, that's a very classic chronic pain stance to be like, oh, I didn't even know I was afraid until I really looked at it and realized like, oh, I am afraid. Like, I'll give one example for me is that I have dual citizenship, which is awesome.
[00:34:00] And I am a citizen of Ireland. My first response is kind of like, Oh, well, you know, I'll be okay, and I am okay, because I could always relocate to Ireland. Which is, like, easy to say, but when I really think about that, I'm like, that would be a massive life transformation. If I were to become a political refugee in a different country, and here I am thinking, like, oh, that's not a problem.
[00:34:24] That won't be a big deal. Like, that's huge. So I actually think, like, It's really important for all of us to be real with ourselves, like, don't downplay how hard this is for you, like, be real about how scary it is.
[00:34:38] Deb: So then, okay, we're real about how scary it is. How do I go to work, have a life, have my relationships, not be in pain, and, deal with the feeling that I'm like supposed to be single handedly, doing something to fight this tyranny.
[00:34:57] Sean: I wish I had the answer to that.
[00:35:03] Deb: I promised everybody a really simple answer to complex life problems.
[00:35:08] Sean: Right.
[00:35:15] Deb: Okay. So here's another question, which is so what does it mean to be with your fear?
[00:35:22] Sean: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. I think it means,
[00:35:27] going back to what you were saying before, maybe you're not functioning, quote unquote, in the same way that you were before, you know? Maybe you really are afraid and you don't have the time to, like be a great performer at work, have great relationships where everything's healthy and smooth and you're really, like, attuned all the time, like, Also, you know, engaging in activism that, that, you know, Oh, I just fixed the problem because me and my community just came up with the solution.
[00:35:56] Like, sitting with your fear is allowing yourself to not put the pressure on to do all that shit. You know what I mean? Even though it's important, like obviously relationships are incredibly important through a hard time like this. Activism is so important through a hard time like this.
[00:36:13] But I guess what I'm thinking is it's good for it to come from a real place versus a place of like, I am fighting for me and the people I care about, like, I am fighting for our lives and our rights versus a place of like, you know, a more unexamined, like, well, it's not about me. But I feel bad for other people and so therefore I want to help them, you know, like, there's so much less fire behind pity than there is behind like joined solidarity.
[00:36:45] Deb: And what I heard you say before is like the cost of suppression, cost of emotional suppression that comes with almost being like well that's a them problem and not a like I am not included in that. Right. There's still the way that we subconsciously assess for threat that sometimes positions us to separate ourselves from the people who are being targeted or exploited or who are more in danger. So we, we kind of retreat, you know, out of self protection and it all shows up in, in the body.
[00:37:26] You know, so when we're actually able to link our humanity with other people's humanity. So our body's ability, I mean, maybe then we're just feeling the realness of the threat, but there's something that is very powerful about that kind of radical acceptance of vulnerability. Like we're vulnerable, we've built a society in which there's not a lot of care.
[00:37:53] Sean: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I also want to turn it around on you. The questions you're asking me, like, what, what do you think? What's, you know?
[00:38:01] Deb: I think before I understood this work, I just had a lot of feelings and was very, like, tormented by having a lot of feelings.
[00:38:09] And I also thought that, like, my feelings came from the circumstances or the people who are making me feel a certain way. So then I always wanted those external things or external people to change for me to feel differently. And of course, better. Right. Nobody just wants to feel different. You just want to feel better.
[00:38:29] Let's like not lie to ourselves. Right. Yes. So one thing I noticed is like when I understand something on a meta level, then I have like a somatic understanding of like, Oh, this is actually what thoughts and feelings are. They emerge from inside of me. And it's mostly about my Relationship with myself or safety or whatever, then I'm able to put it into this deeper workability for me. Like I had an interaction with my plumber this morning, that was like, I was like, Oh, he, he was in a bad mood and I would like really, really reactive to his mood.
[00:39:09] And I just thought that was fascinating. And I was like, I don't want to get another plumber.
[00:39:16] Right. But I was like this, whatever this thing was, this conflict, this feeling, it triggered something in me. So there's the invitation into my own deeper self. So practice is like journal speak, right? Understanding how to notice sensations in the body.
[00:39:35] How to also find that ground of like, I'm a human being and I have worth and value that is intrinsic to just my existing. So there's certain kinds of ideological stances that I believe in. And I just need to like continue to remind myself. Because I'm 55 and I lived through the AIDS crisis and I was involved in ACT UP so being here on the planet for a certain amount of time also gives me a little sense of history of like, I remember when there were no gay people on television anywhere at any time when I came out, the only lesbian was Martina Navratilova and we were talking about Rock Hudson dying of AIDS, like that was the, I want to say a vibe, but that's not a vibe, but like that was what I grew up in being queer. And so there's this sense of being able to hold history that we have one always existed that we will continue to exist and persist and that regardless of whatever government does that there's a sense of both resistance, but also just pure existence that are things that I do to help myself. And then you know, and then there's just the, like, today is one day among many. And so I am gonna remind myself to be a really good friend to me.
[00:40:59] Yeah, my feelings and my emotions. So yeah, often starting with a journal speak practice or some kind of grounding or some kind of embodiment and really valuing. Like what I've been thinking about lately is really, really valuing myself so exquisitely. Because I am so, um, Oh, what is the word?
[00:41:23] See, I can't even find the word. Disposable to our leaders.
[00:41:30] Sean: Yeah.
[00:41:31] Deb: I'm like, well, that's fine. That's your opinion.
[00:41:34] Sean: Yeah.
[00:41:34] Deb: It's not the truth of my being. And so really like living into that feeling. What helps me feel better, right? Because we do want to wake up in the morning and not just automatically kick off being in a lot of despair and not circling doom scrolling at night before you go to bed, like thinking about what does my body need?
[00:41:58] What does my heart need? What do my connections need? And trying to serve that. And also, yeah, stepping out of like the perfectionist fantasy thinking that like somehow it's going to just magically go away.
[00:42:14] Sean: Yeah.
[00:42:15] Deb: And holding it loosely, one of Nicole's favorite sayings, but I also hear what you're saying, which is like to really just let yourself be human and not have it all together all the time.
[00:42:27] Sean: Yeah, yeah. I really relate to what you're saying about like Two things. First, I totally know what you mean about sitting in the world as someone who's like, ugh, I'm really going through a lot of feelings, and if only everybody else would change, I wouldn't have to feel this way. I totally relate to that. In that way, like, giving, giving your power away, like, thinking, like, there's nothing I can do to control this. Angry, angry, angry, stamping feet, you know, balling up fists, like, other people are just doing this to me. And, on some level, that's not wrong, you know? But on another level, like, you have more control, and I really love what you're saying about, like, when you, allow your truth, when you really acknowledge what you're saying and I relate to this a million times over, like, I exist, therefore, like, okay, like, here I am, you know, just, like, I am a queer person in the world, and so are my friends, you know.
[00:43:28] And here we are, we exist, therefore we matter and are important, and the universe created this, and that means they created us, and so here we are, so not taking in this idea, not letting it get in your psyche, like, Either a there's something wrong with me or be like other people need to recognize there's nothing wrong with me It's like I know that and yes other people do need to recognize that but like right now I know that and that changes everything for me
[00:43:59] Deb: And it changes the way that we show up in a space where we're looking for permission to exist there is a quality of vulnerability in which we're kind of Subconsciously needing that approval and it's almost going back to kind of like attachment with a parent, which is like, Oh, I need you.
[00:44:19] Well, it's like, yeah, but now as a fully formed adult, like there are things that I need, but I don't need somebody's validation that I exist.
[00:44:29] Sean: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. That's so real. Having your own validation is so important not giving that up is so huge.
[00:44:39] Deb: And we are under some psychological warfare. Let's be real.
[00:44:43] Sean: Yes. Well put. Yep.
[00:44:45] Deb: So it's not just a happy January or it's not even January. Happy February. See, I don't even know. January was the month that lasted forever. I will say that many
[00:45:00] flavors. Yeah, this is a moment in time. I sometimes like to take myself into the future and, to a time where it's beyond this time.
[00:45:11] Sean: Yeah.
[00:45:12] Deb: Where I'm with all my beloveds and we're looking back and there's something peaceful about having that, right? Putting myself in the future, putting the people I love in the future and imagining the world that, that I hope it gets to be.
[00:45:28] Sean: Totally. Yes. And my thinking in addition to that, it's like, you can only really get there in an authentic way.
[00:45:35] Once you've felt the fears you have, the terror you have, the, you know, the, will I live through this? Will my friends live through this? You know, like, really go to the scary places. And I think it's only through that, that you can come out on the other side and, and, and think, like, yeah, what if we all make it?
[00:45:57] Then this, this will be what it's like afterwards. And how beautiful would that be?
[00:46:02] Deb: Yeah. Yeah. I want to honor your time and thank you so much.
[00:46:07] Sean: Thanks for having me. This is such a fun conversation. I feel like we could, I'm like, you know, I wish we had an answer that was like, if you just follow steps one, two, and three, the administration will reverse all their policies and Trump won't be president anymore.
[00:46:22] And like, people are safe. I wish we had that answer, but we provided something, hopefully.
[00:46:29] Deb: Yeah. I mean, I think that, I think it's actually really helpful to be like, what do we need in this moment in this time that we're actually existing in versus kind of trying to go back in our own mind and body and be like, what should we have done differently to not have this outcome?
[00:46:47] I actually find that that keeps me in a very disempowered, frustrated and painful place. So yeah, this is the moment that we're in, not my favorite. But talking to you has been a favorite.
[00:47:03] Sean: Back at you.
[00:47:05] Deb: I'm sure we'll get to do this again. I'm excited to start out these conversations and take up this space both in the queer world and in the mind body world and, and raise up these issues because I think that they're important to understand that like you're normal if you're feeling pain right now.
[00:47:25] Sean: Yes. Agreed. Yeah,
[00:47:28] Deb: and, and there's a way out.
[00:47:30] Sean: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm excited that you're letting queer people take up space in this community and in the world right now. And I'm following now, you know, like I keep me abreast of the future podcasts on this topic that come out because I'm following.
[00:47:46] Deb: Absolutely. Thank you. Yeah. I'm always seeking to not be alone and not be the only one. So now I'm not alone and I'm not the only one, so thanks for doing this with me.
[00:47:56] Sean: Oh yes, absolutely. Absolutely.