My colleague and friend Phil de la Haye is back on the podcast to share a personal experience with his mind-body tools, particularly IFS (internal family systems) to address his body’s response to the anti-transgender political actions enacted after the inauguration. We speak of the ways to think of safety both intrinsic and extrinsic to help regulate the nervous system and quiet the pain alarm even while real threats to safety are unfolding daily. We discuss how anger helps us to move out of a shut down state and motivates action. We deserve to feel better and cannot wait until the next election or whatever comes next. We are the ones our young parts have been waiting for.
My colleague and friend Phil de la Haye is back on the podcast to share a personal experience with his mind-body tools, particularly IFS (internal family systems) to address his body’s response to the anti-transgender political actions enacted after the inauguration.
We speak of the ways to think of safety both intrinsic and extrinsic to help regulate the nervous system and quiet the pain alarm even while real threats to safety are unfolding daily. We discuss how anger helps us to move out of a shut down state and motivates action.
We deserve to feel better and cannot wait until the next election or whatever comes next. We are the ones our young parts have been waiting for.
Phil’s IFS and journalling workshops
https://phildelahaye.com/workshops/
Article about IFS and chronic pain
https://phildelahaye.com/internal-family-systems-and-chronic-pain/
Phil’s Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/phildelahayeifs/
Phil’s Facebook Page
https://www.facebook.com/phildelahayeifs
Phil’s Facebook Group
[00:00:00] Welcome to the curiosity cure podcast. I'm your host, Deb Malkin, master certified life coach, body worker, hypnotist trained in pain reprocessing by the pain psychology center, queer elder fat human on planet earth here to help you evoke the power of simple neuroplasticity techniques rooted in shame free curiosity so you can feel more better Transcribed more of the time in the body you have today and build the rich, full life that you want to live.
[00:00:39] A quick disclaimer, this podcast is not a replacement for medical care. I am here to provide insights and techniques that can complement your healthcare journey, but always consult with your healthcare provider for personalized advice.
[00:00:58] Deb: Hello, my feelers and healers, welcome to the curiosity cure podcast. I'm your host, Deb. And I am here with my friend and colleague, Phil DeLaHaye. We're continuing this series about mind, body practices and meeting this moment in politics. I was gonna say American politics, but Phil is in the UK. And so this is certainly a global experience that we're having. I'm just going to hand it over to you right now to, to share, you know, cause Phil was on the podcast before, but more about why we're having this conversation now.
[00:01:36] Phil: Yeah. It feels like just such an important conversation to be having. I feel like the theme of this conversation is going to be about the impact of systemic oppression, the impact of like the wider world, but particularly on marginalized folk, so people who are in marginalized communities and how we can take care of ourself, you know, in those times like what steps can we take, where do we have some power to help ourselves to feel a little bit better and a little bit safer in all of this.
[00:02:08] Deb: Some of the foundational pieces in mind, body medicine and pain recovery are always about sourcing safety and it can feel like an extra special challenge that we didn't ever want or ask for, for people who have marginalized experiences, who live in bodies that are kind of controlled by the state or that come in contact with more violence or more scrutiny or more kind of external management even, it can feel doubly hard to find a sense of safety.
[00:02:44] And even if we go back and think about it, like generationally. Some people's bodies and beings have never had a real sense of safety. That there's always been this quality of threat and danger or perception of, well, you know, then I don't even want to say perception of threat and danger, right?
[00:03:08] Phil: It's so real, real threats,
[00:03:11] Deb: real threat and real danger. And yet we are are talking to our internal self and trying to create that feeling of safety so it can feel, like an unsolvable puzzle sometimes. But yet, you know, we're out here. In these mind body streets doing the thing.
[00:03:33] So I think it would be really helpful to both name that and also share how you're doing your work to help you feel, more safe and more regulated and and help your body.
[00:03:47] Phil: Yeah, so first off, it probably feels really important actually that I introduce myself a little bit more because some of your listeners might already be familiar with me or might have heard the podcast I did with you before, but some people might not.
[00:04:01] And also I think in the context of this conversation, it feels important that I maybe do a more full introduction and I'm probably going to maybe speak a little bit more about myself and my lived experience than I've done before. May have that I would have done before. So, so I'm Phil, and I'm 53 years old, which always feels really important to say because people often think I'm younger than I am. In terms of my professional identity, I am a mind body coach and I am also a certified IFS internal family systems therapist. So that's the professional lens that I'm coming at this with. I'm also a human, you know, who's impacted by the world. And so in terms of introducing myself a little bit more.
[00:04:47] In terms of my social identity, I want to kind of be clear about my lens and my biases and where I have power and privilege and where I am marginalized because It's really complex. And so speaking first for areas where I believe that I have some power and some privilege. I'm white, I'm British, I'm middle class, I'm university educated, I'm financially secure.
[00:05:15] And I consider myself to be able bodied and healthy, aside from having a history of my own body issues, but these days I consider myself to be able bodied and healthy. And I have an average body size. So those are the places where I don't feel marginalized and I have some power and I have some privilege in the world.
[00:05:34] And then in terms of where I fit into a more marginalized identity, I identify as queer, I'm transgender, I'm neurodivergent, I have ADHD. And I was socialized as female, so although I now generally move through the world with people assuming that I'm male, that wasn't the case for me for a long time. So I know the experience of moving through the world in a seen as female body.
[00:06:01] And as I said before, I do also have a history of chronic pain and chronic symptoms and also various mental health challenges in the past, although now I consider my mental health to be generally pretty good. So that's kind of a picture of me and the lenses that I'm coming at this through.
[00:06:17] Deb: Thank you for naming all of that because, you know, to quote Walt Whitman, we contain multitudes and different parts of us intersect with the world in different ways and I know you're going to talk more about parts through an IFS lens But there's literally the the ways in which were perceived and those parts like other people's perceptions also plays out differently depending on where we're socially located
[00:06:46] Phil: Yeah, absolutely. It just feels really important to have some clarity around that because obviously coming at this topic, you know, I'm coming with my own biases, especially as a transgender person, you know, that at the moment is very much, you know, my focus and how I'm feeling very impacted by some of the things going on in the world.
[00:07:03] And just to track back to this idea of parts, I'll just say a little bit about IFS for anyone who isn't familiar with that because I am going to be talking about parts of me a lot and so anyone who's not familiar with IFS might be like, you know, why does Phil keep talking about these parts? So IFS or internal family systems, the kind of elevator pitch version is It's this concept that, as you say, we all contain multitudes, there are many different parts of our personalities, many different aspects of us.
[00:07:34] And we also kind of have a core self, the adults kind of grounded place in us that's not a part, but we have many parts and some of those parts are very young and very vulnerable. And those are the parts of us that often get triggered by scary stuff that's happening in the world, for example, or, you know, any sort of negative thing that makes us feel worried or scared or threatened.
[00:07:58] But we also have protective parts that kind of try to keep us functioning and that try to soothe us and try to distract us and try to find ways of making us feel better when vulnerable kind of exiled parts of us get activated. So I'm going to be talking in the context of that when I talk a little bit about what's been going on for me recently, and.
[00:08:18] I want a name there is a protective part of me that kind of doesn't like that I'm saying anything political because like I have some parts you know, don't want to be political. But at the moment, I don't feel like I have a choice because my very existence is political, like my, my identity and my body have become a political issue for me whether I like it or not.
[00:08:40] And so this conversation just feels really important to have and I don't want to get too much into the details of politics and policies, but I do want to talk about the impact of these wider systems.
[00:08:52] Deb: Thank you so much for for saying that and also just even talking about like that protector part that's really feeling very vulnerable and like not wanting you to talk politically because there's a lot of pushback on that and I've seen that in some mind body spaces online where people really want to avoid politics and yet then it doesn't allow us to talk about the real impacts of what's what's being felt right? And it doesn't require people to have a particular political stance To acknowledge that politics and what's happening in the world and people who have power and control, that those things are impacting us physically.
[00:09:37] I don't think that doesn't require you to have a particular stance on politics, but I think it's really like essential to name and it's just very naive to not acknowledge that, because everything we know about wellness, you know, is very clear that there's all these biopsychosocial factors affect our well being, right? We're not just all in the world with the same body doing the same things in the same time.
[00:10:10] Phil: Yeah, yeah, there's a whole raft of evidence that supports and demonstrates that, you know, there is a genuine health impacts on people in marginalized groups.
[00:10:20] There's enough evidence that shows the truth of that. So I wonder if it's okay to like shift onto talking. I was gonna maybe start by talking a little bit more generally, and I know we're already touching on this, but talking kind of generally about the reality of 2025 and the impact on our nervous systems and on our like, internal systems of parts, these young parts of us and our protectors and then after that, I'll probably shift into talking a little bit more about like my experience of that and how I've been experiencing that and what I've been doing to support myself. And then maybe we'll open that out then more generally into how, you know, what other people might want to do to support themselves.
[00:11:00] Deb: I think that sounds great.
[00:11:02] Phil: So I guess just, you know, acknowledging the reality of the world as it is at the moment, you know. It's incredibly challenging. You know, I'm speaking as a British person, you're in the States, you know, a lot of what's been impacting me recently has been news of American politics specifically, but there's just so many difficult, challenging things going on in the world.
[00:11:21] Politically, there seems to be a rise of far right politics, you know, across the globe, across Europe as well as the U S and just the impact that that has on marginalized groups in particular because it seems to be this fairly systematic erosion of human rights that we're seeing and a move away from more liberal sort of caring politics into this very divisive oppression and discrimination and that affects, you know, transgender folk being very much affected by that in the US at the moment, and it's not great in the UK either. But these things also impact, you know, the LGBTQ population in general, people of colour, women's rights are impacted, disabled people's rights are being impacted.
[00:12:07] And It feels really important to be clear, and I know you've already said this, but I don't think we can say it too many times. This threat is real, and we are not for a minute trying to tell people that it isn't. You know, there are genuine scary things happening in the world, and of course we are reacting to that, and our nervous systems are reacting to that.
[00:12:25] But, where I feel there is some room for helping ourselves and helping each other, is that when these things that are happening, these big external things are happening that we can't control, intersects with our past trauma, it intersects with our lived experience, and with all of the stuff that we're carrying in our systems.
[00:12:49] And when you're in a marginalized group, it's fairly likely that you maybe have a little bit more trauma that you're carrying around with you than somebody who's not in a marginalized group. Because The experience of marginalization and oppression is inherently traumatic, you know, and you spoke about that that's even like there's a legacy, there's an ancestral burden of trauma in certain groups.
[00:13:12] So in black and indigenous people of color, that's come through the generations, like multiple generations, not just a lifetime of systemic oppression. And for people who grew up as transgender or neurodivergent, there is trauma in that, in being misunderstood, in being different and not fitting in that experience of marginalization, even if as a child, you don't have the words to describe that, you know, that impacts us and our systems.
[00:13:42] And so where we have these old wounds and we have inner child parts of us who experienced those things and who are still holding pain and fear and, you know, dysregulation around that. Then when these external things are happening in the here and now, we're feeling both. We're feeling the fear that is true and real right now, but we've also got these young parts of us who are being really activated and who then kind of take over and overwhelm us.
[00:14:11] And there's old feelings that are getting mixed up with present current day feelings and that then just makes it even more difficult for us to find any place of sort of safety and regulation amid all of that chaos.
[00:14:24] Deb: Yes, let me tell you what I'm noticing is that my body is is settling as I'm listening to you, and there's something powerful about feeling acknowledged, but not in a way where we're running around being like the sky is falling ah is everybody's seeing it, it's not that level.
[00:14:48] But it is, I think two podcasts ago I talked about just being in the truth of the moment and having that sense of radical acceptance and just naming it. It was really nice to be in the listening side and I just felt my body settle more and more as I'm listening to you and feeling, yeah, very seen and not alone in this experience.
[00:15:16] So, yeah, thank you. I just wanted to name that.
[00:15:21] Phil: Yeah.
[00:15:22] Deb: Also, Phil's not going to be like, that's weird. Why are you telling me how your body is?
[00:15:29] Yeah, I guess that's also my invitation is for people as they're listening to this podcast to just check in with your own body and just notice what helps you feel just a little bit more spacious and a little bit more ground and just start to recognize that as a part of the work, a part of something that you actually can create for yourself.
[00:15:53] Just holding that big mirror up for the process. So yeah, I'm just gonna keep going. I'm listening and really happy to be having this conversation.
[00:16:06] Phil: Yeah, me too. I, I paused there because, um, I have a little part of me who always worries about talking too much and taking up too much space. So that part just paused slightly for breath so that you could get a word in.
[00:16:20] But, I love that you reflecting on just how it feels in your body. And yeah, I can feel my self settling as well as we're coming into this conversation because there were some parts that were a little bit anxious, a little bit activated coming in. This feels quite vulnerable talking about something that is personal for me.
[00:16:39] So, but being here with you and just trusting trusting that I'm going to find the right words and that it's going to feel okay. So really noticing that bit of settling too, which then probably leads into, I guess, the next thing I was going to say. So I've already said how from like an internal family systems perspective, you know, all the stuff that's happening in that outside world is triggering us and is triggering young, frightened, kind of child parts of us very often.
[00:17:07] And so from a nervous system perspective that is putting us into dysregulation. That's putting us into either kind of a fight, flight, anxious, like, Oh my God, I need to do something. I need to fix it. How am I going to, like, what can I do? Like, what can I do? Or it will put us into more of the kind of shut down, collapse state of like everything is hopeless and there is nothing I can do.
[00:17:29] I might as well just give up. Or it might put us into the freeze state, which is a little bit of both. So it's like. Everything is hopeless. I need to do something, but I don't know what to do. So we end up kind of stuck, you know, one foot on the gas, one foot on the brake in that freeze state. And when we're in that state, when we're in any of those nervous system states, although they are totally understandable reaction to scary stuff that's happening.
[00:17:55] That's not necessarily the most helpful state for us to be in in order to really find that place of empowerment where we can take some action and where we can take some steps towards helping ourselves and helping our communities. And so this is where I think, you know, things like regulation, like self regulation and self care is a form of activism because it empowers us to take steps towards helping ourselves and helping other people, even in really small ways.
[00:18:26] And when we can regulate ourselves and just bring a little bit more safety, even if it's just like 10 percent more safety to our nervous system, then it helps us to find, yeah, what we can do, how we can advocate for ourselves and how we can, you know, speak up and make a difference, even if it's just in a small way.
[00:18:45] Deb: Um, maybe we'll talk about this later, but I wanted to name it now, which is like I'm so angry. And also scared, but more angry and then that kicks into feeling helpless, right? It's like, I did stuff. I was in Florida working on campaign things. There is a feeling of futility around action.
[00:19:09] That does bring that stuck, shut down kind of thing where it's like the big emotion of anger and then the feeling of futility of action, you know, which I know is also designed, right? Like there's a lot of psychological warfare that's happening,
[00:19:26] Phil: hmmmm,
[00:19:27] Deb: that of course is affecting us. That of course is like controlling the story.
[00:19:32] Phil: Yeah, I love that you used that. Sorry, I interrupted because I got excited around just, you know, that word psychological warfare, but it really does make sense. I mean, the way that things have played out in the States in particular in the last couple of weeks does feel as if somebody has planned it in a way to put people into a state of powerlessness and panic and helplessness because they've been such like multiple assaults on human rights from all directions and how can you challenge that, you know, when there's so much coming at you.
[00:20:06] So it makes sense that the nervous system, you know, there would be anger, but then there would also be that, you know, just that overwhelm and then, and then the shutdown because there's just so much happening right now.
[00:20:17] Deb: Yeah. Yeah. And then it's easy to dissociate or to scroll endlessly. I mean, some people are moving, you know, but it's like there's that a scary movie soundtrack playing in the background as you're trying to go about your day. And of course, then nothing feels quite right. I want to turn it back to you and just be like, what's been your process?
[00:20:43] It's for helping yourself and, and also with any of your clients that you're doing this work on addressing what's been your heart, where have you landed? It has been a month since the inauguration, so it hasn't been that much time and a lot has happened. So I guess I just want to turn it back to you and, and hear more about the work that you've been doing.
[00:21:08] Phil: Yeah, so I'll start by talking about the impact, I guess, and then about the kind of process that I've been on and obviously, you know, I'm still in process stuff still happening. It's not like anything is in any way fixed or resolved on the outside. But I guess I've come to a place of feeling a bit more regulated and a bit more grounded again.
[00:21:29] So my hope is that describing that process might just help give people some ideas for what might help them. What I noticed was when I first started reading all of the news and specifically a lot of the stuff around the attack on trans rights in the US, my first reaction was one of anger.
[00:21:47] But then I very quickly ended up going into more of that kind of, from a nervous system perspective, that dorsal vagal state of kind of like shut down and collapse and overwhelm with that sort of feeling of like, Oh, this is hopeless, like there's nothing I can do. And just when I kind of felt into it and connected with it, it was like a really intense feeling of dread in my chest and it just felt like a like a massive heavy rock. And it was hard to breathe and I went to a online IFS UK gathering where somebody led this really beautiful meditation that invited us to visualize these kind of circles going from like a circle that was In us to like circle of family and friends, and then a circle of colleagues, and then this sort of most distant circle that was the wider world, and as the invitation was to connect with that wider world circle and how it was impacting on me, then those parts in me, those young, like really fearful, panicky, dread parts came up really, really strongly during that meditation. Up till that point, I was kind of aware of them, but I was trying not to really give them too much time and attention, or other parts of me.
[00:23:03] Some of my protective parts were like, yeah, we'll just pack that away. We're not going to think about it too much because there's not much we can do about this anyway. So we don't really want to go there. We don't really want to feel those feelings because it is too much. It's overwhelming. And so when this came on really strongly during this meditation, it was, it was a lot, but it was also, I was actually really glad for the opportunity to recognize just how scared those parts were, and how it tapped into some really young feelings. So it was that opportunity for me to recognize that this response I'm having to what's going on in the world is not coming from a grounded adult place. It is coming from, or a lot of it is coming from, young parts in me who felt unseen, who felt misunderstood, who felt like my very existence and identity is being denied, so it kind of feels like annihilation to those parts. And, you know, that, to an extent, that was my experience as a really young child when I didn't have the words to explain, like, At that stage, I, I knew instinctively that something wasn't right about the role that I'd been assigned, the gender role that I'd been assigned, but I didn't have the language to explain that or advocate for myself as a child.
[00:24:17] And so that experience of just being completely denied and erased, and I could feel that that was there. And then there were also maybe slightly older parts who had experiences of being bullied or excluded or, you know, treated badly. Because I was probably a bit different and didn't fit in, you know, I was a transgender child who didn't know they were transgender.
[00:24:39] I was a neurodivergent child who didn't know they had ADHD. So I had some pretty horrible experiences at school of being othered and, and rejected and teased. And so it felt like all of those young parts were really reacting to this systemic oppression around trans rights. It was really helpful to connect with that and be able to really bring some self compassion to that.
[00:25:04] Then what I found was, is that from there, I was able to connect more with some of my protective parts. It was almost like they were able to kind of get back behind the wheel a little bit after all these young ones had come rushing up. And then over the next week, I was just really aware of like different protective parts who were coming in and trying to help me with different strategies.
[00:25:26] And I really want to honor those protectors. Because although some of them, you know, on the surface, it might not seem super helpful to have a part that made me binge watch loads of episodes of Downton Abbey and just like sit on the sofa under a blanket when I wasn't doing client work. But actually, my system really needed that soothing, you know, that was kind of almost the first step was like reaching out for things that brought a little bit of comfort and that helped me just find a little bit of comfort in the moment.
[00:25:53] And then I also have a kind of a self care managing part of me who was really good, even though I was feeling activated and a bit shut down and not very motivated. This kind of self care manager made me stick to my morning routine, which is a really helpful thing for me to do. My morning routine involves at the moment doing some movement every morning, doing some Tai Chi and doing some self compassion meditation. And then I always take my dog out for a walk. And when I'm out on the walk, I try to be mindful and try to be in nature. And I don't let myself look at my phone or look at the news until after I've done those things. So my self care manager really helped me to stick to that as I gradually started to mobilize and started to come out of that kind of collapse, helpless state.
[00:26:42] And then I had a session with my therapist, who is wonderful. And In that session, after I'd spoken for and told her about this sort of frightened, collapsed parts, in that session I was then able to really notice my angry protectors. And the anger, like, really came in quite strongly in that session with her.
[00:27:04] And I have a lot of other parts that often try to deny my anger, like, It wasn't safe for me to be angry as a child. Anger was not welcome to my family, so I have other parts that really try and repress it and push it away and make excuses for everybody and try to be really reasonable all the time. But that anger really came up in that therapy session and my therapist was able to help me to make space for it and really speak and let that part say like what it wanted to say and that was really, really helpful.
[00:27:32] And what I noticed was after accessing that healthy anger, because anger is mobilizing, and anger is that shift from, you know, when we're in that dorsal, shut down, collapsed state of the nervous system, the only way back to regulation is through sympathetic fight flight activation. We can't go from shut down into regulation.
[00:27:53] We have to go through that activation first. And so once I'd moved through that activation of Anger. Then I was able to come back into, you know, more of regulated state and a little bit more safety, and that was when I reached out to you, Deb was literally a couple of hours after that therapy session and after that angry part had come up with all of that energy of like, actually I'm not helpless.
[00:28:18] I don't have to be helpless and powerless. Like, yeah, there's a lot of stuff I can't control. There's of course, there's a lot of stuff I can't control and I can't change, but what can I do? I can use my voice and I can reach out and I can connect with people who I trust and I can offer to have a conversation about this shit on a podcast because it might help somebody else who's listening.
[00:28:40] And so there was a really lovely shift in my system from that collapse, terror, dread, through that kind of healthy anger, which really then helped me to mobilize, and then coming back to a place where, you know, the anger is there in the background and it's supporting me, but I can also really feel into, you know, in IFS we talk about these qualities of like self energy, like the, the wise adult self, they're things like compassion and connection and calm, but they're also courage and confidence.
[00:29:13] And I've really noticed myself just being able to tap into more of that again. Since that therapy session last week and how beautiful that after that I was inspired to get to reach out to you and to a couple of other people I know who have podcasts and to reach out to friends and have conversations and seek connection and support. And so that just helped me enormously.
[00:29:38] Deb: I love hearing you talk about that generative fuel of anger. You know, it makes me feel even more resentful when like big emotions come in and they feel like they hijacked me in my life, but I will say these conversations, my attention to my podcast right now is being driven by anger in a way where I'm like, yeah, I've been wanting to kind of focus my energy on getting this work out there, and growing my podcast and, and sharing these concepts with, More people.
[00:30:12] And I didn't realize that this was going to be what would help me focus my energy and attention on doing it. And I was like, here we go, you know, because I think, oppression isn't going anywhere. Right. Systemic violence isn't going anywhere. You know, and you and I are a similar age.
[00:30:32] Right? So we've grown up and lived through times in which there were no transgender rights or acknowledgement of trans lives in the way that there has become. And it's helpful to remember the history and to have a kind of an embodied sense of it. And that's also so fragile because we're like, Oh, we worked so hard to create something and how easy it is to have that be taken away, creates a little bit more vulnerability.
[00:31:01] And then on the other side of it is like, well, we've always existed regardless of acknowledgement or not. So there's the kind of strength in that history. That's in there for me. Just kind of mapping this sense of like, how do I do the day, while all of these things are happening? And how do I create? impact, take impactful actions. I've been using five calls, which is an app, a program that we have in the United States that helps you call your representatives. And there's just something about how well they designed it, that like it feels very effective. And one thing that I didn't know, and I learned is that, Republicans call their representatives 5 to 11 times more often than Democrats, you know, or if we want to say people on the right and people on the left, like whatever we're talking about.
[00:31:53] If we're talking about having impact and having our voices heard, it sometimes can feel so overwhelming to try to, oh, I really want and need for my government to see me as a human being, but then not used my own voice to talk to the people who have been elected, whether or not I was the one to vote for them, not use my own voice to reach out to them and say like, hey, I'm here and I exist.
[00:32:19] Or these are, human beings and this is what we need from you. You are our representative. So it sounds so simplistic, but I'm very happy that somebody has built something that is easy to engage with. That helps me feel like every day I'm taking some form of action besides like making this podcast and besides being in community with people.
[00:32:42] And then I just have to settle the part of me that feels like it's never enough, and just let that maybe be true. I'm not really sure, but you know, it really is about like building a day in which I'm not constantly in a fight state. Because this battle is not ending tomorrow.
[00:33:04] Phil: Mm hmm. Yeah, I, I really hear you on that.
[00:33:07] I'm just noticing as you said that, like, while we do need some of that energy and mobilization of of angry parts, if we get stuck in that sympathetic activation, then we end up burning out. So that's where regulation and being able to process and work with our angry parts so that they can relax a little bit.
[00:33:28] You know, they can be there in the background, you know, we can call on them when we need them, but if they're in the driving seat all the time, that is when we burn again. Which again, I think is where working with parks and having that awareness of inner child and different parts can be so helpful.
[00:33:44] Is it okay if I say a little bit more about that? Because there was something there that I think again, it's been really helpful for me around when we notice these young parts inside us, then what can be so helpful is to start to get to know those parts and start to build a relationship with them.
[00:34:00] Whether that's through things like journaling or in a child meditation or, you know, reading and learning about IFS, there's loads of books and workbooks out there. But for me, it's like working with those young parts and reminding them that I'm an adult now. Is incredibly helpful because those young parts often they keep forgetting that I mean sometimes they literally don't know that until we get to know them and realize that they're there in our systems.
[00:34:26] And then even as we do get to know them they they often forget they often need to be oriented to the present, quite often. So, If I notice myself feeling, you know, a bit kind of panicky and powerless and out of control, it can be really helpful to kind of invite like all of the parts of me to really notice, you know, the reality and like, this is 2025.
[00:34:48] And yeah, there is some pretty shitty stuff happening out there. But also I am now an adult. I now get to choose my own bedtime and I can make myself a snack whenever I'm hungry. And I can seek support and connection from people if I need it, and I have friends and I have amazing colleagues and communities and there are people who got my back in a way that was not true when I was 12 years old and I had nobody at boarding school. I had nobody to support me. You know, it's reminding those parts that I'm not alone now like I was then. And yeah, things are difficult now. Again, you know, that reality is true. But if my 12 year old part is in the driving seat, or if my three year old part is the one who's behind the metaphorical wheel of my mind, then I'm going to feel so much more dysregulated than if I'm the one driving and you guys are all really welcome, but just remember, you know, I'm here and I can drive and, and you can be here too. But, you know, things are not the same as they were back then. There might be challenges now, but it's not the same and helping our young parts to notice what's different.
[00:35:57] And it's sometimes it can be as simple as that. Like I get to choose my own meal times now, or I have a dog now, or I know how to drive now. Some, sometimes those things can be really powerful for young parts.
[00:36:10] Deb: There's something that was emerging in me as you were saying that, which is like, even reminding our adult self that we're adults, right?
[00:36:19] Like there's something about like, we've actually come through so much and we're able to handle so many things.
[00:36:28] Phil: Look at what we've already been through.
[00:36:30] Deb: Yeah. Look at what we've already been through. And, and also there's some discernment in this for me, which is almost the opposite of fighting.
[00:36:38] It's like the recognizing which battles are not mine to be in. Um, I've really been working on this sense of having a steady foundation. I think it's something about how other people's distress is landing in my system, and it feels kind of hard and cruel to like turn down my reception of other people's distress, but it's also essential for me to feel well.
[00:37:07] And having those
[00:37:08] Phil: emotional boundaries is necessary
[00:37:12] Deb: and it's hard, right? And so some of that is like managing how much time I spend on the internet because there's a lot of people seeking connection through shared distress and, you know, and sharing information, and sharing, you know, all kinds of things, you know, things, I mean, I think the internet is rife for sharing things that are alarming, but not necessarily true, there's a certain quality of information that's meant to capture your attention on purpose and, I guess hijack your system, right?
[00:37:46] It's almost like, playing slot machines or something like that. They design them to capture all of your attention. I think our phones do that as well, but also only because I care, right? So it's like, I have to remind myself that like, yes, it's hard to look away because I actually care so much.
[00:38:05] So that feels like I have to step away and care equally about myself, but in a way that like doesn't trigger this, like, well, you're selfish or you're something,
[00:38:18] Phil: right? Yeah. Well, that's a, that's a critical part, isn't it? That's telling you, yeah, you should be, you know, you should be following all the news.
[00:38:26] You should care. And while there is a truth to that at the same time, as you said. If we read every single news story and if we, if we end up over identifying with other people suffering, then that just keeps us in a state of permanent dysregulation. And there's something about the difference between.
[00:38:46] neurologically, there is a difference between compassion and empathy. So compassion is, is feeling for, feeling for somebody, you know, genuinely caring, but with that emotional boundary in place, whereas empathy is feeling with, and feeling with can sometimes just be too overwhelming.
[00:39:04] You know, if we're feeling with, if we're feeling literally, What other people are feeling to that extent, that extent of resonance that again, that will very quickly push us into compassion, fatigue and burnout and overload. So, and parts are involved in that too, because it's usually our young, vulnerable, hurting parts are the ones who over empathize with other people's suffering.
[00:39:30] So when we're able to kind of ask those little ones inside, to give us some space so that our adult self can be behind the wheel again, then we're usually able to kind of, we can access compassion without that kind of overwhelm of all the feelings that are not our feelings.
[00:39:49] Deb: So how do you, I'm sure there's more than one way, but how do you talk to your different parts? Like, how do you access them and connect with them? Or maybe tell me a story about like something that you've done in the last few weeks around that.
[00:40:05] Phil: Yeah, so, I mean, generally, one of the most helpful things to do as you start to get to know different parts is just noticing them, just noticing that they're there, because as soon as you notice them, that gives you a little bit of space from them and they, they unblend and they don't overwhelm you so much.
[00:40:22] Um, I'm trying to think if this is a helpful example to give. Maybe it is. I'm just checking, I'm checking with a part now to see. Is this going to be helpful? Is it too vulnerable? I think it is a good example of what we've just been speaking about actually regarding the kind of The overwhelm where we over identify and we project and it feels overwhelming.
[00:40:43] So, a young part made itself known to me in a, in what seemed like a really bizarre random way about three mornings ago, I woke up early and the first thought I had in my head when I woke up was about the dog, the Russian dog that got sent to space in the 1950s and who died in orbit. And I'd read about that months ago and felt very sad about it and then haven't thought about it since. And for some reason that popped into my head first thing in the morning. And of course, then my protective parts did what protective parts do, which is like, don't think about that. It's going to make you sad. So some of my protective, suppressing parts were like, why are you even thinking about that?
[00:41:26] It's not relevant. It's only going to make you sad. You know, I have parts were very good at compartmentalizing and just like, no, we're just going to put that in a box and just put it away. And then I think I probably started reading and then went back to sleep and didn't think about it again until yesterday when I was in my therapy session.
[00:41:45] And I've been talking about. A few other things sort of updating her on various bits and pieces and then suddenly I found myself saying, Oh, yeah, this weird thing happened the other day where I woke up thinking about the Russian dog who got sent to space and he died. And as soon as I started telling her about it, like my voice broke, I could feel the tears coming up and I was immediately like really blended with, with a part he was just feeling just so much grief and sadness about this dog.
[00:42:16] And it's really interesting telling you now that I can tell you this now without that same response happening because I did. the work in therapy around it. And as that happened and I started to cry, I noticed other protective parts coming in and trying to distract.
[00:42:29] So there was a minimizing part that was like, this feels so ridiculous. Why am I crying about this dog? I mean, sure it's sad, but you know, lots of sad things happen to animals and people all the time. Why is this, why is this even relevant? And my therapist, who's amazing, was just like, you know. It's probably not really about the dog, is it?
[00:42:49] You know, let's just stay with this, just stay with it and notice. And then another part of me is kind of like more of humor as a defense mechanism part was then like, now I'm just this. So that part was sort of saying in my head, like, Why did you even tell her about the fucking dog, Phil? Like, you should have known this would happen.
[00:43:08] Like, you should have just kept quiet and not mentioned it. And now look what's happened. You know, this young part is now, like, overwhelming you. And so I kind of told her about that as well. I said, yeah, there's another part that thinks it's kind of, almost thinks it's funny and is trying to distract me.
[00:43:22] And she was like, But there's something really important here. Let's just stay with it. You know, this isn't about the dog. And then one part was like, well, it is about the dog because it is really sad about the dog. But then my kind of analytical thinky part, who is very helpful in therapy. And, you know, this one kind of looks a bit like Freud on the inside.
[00:43:41] And that, that part was then, you know, of course, it's not about the dog. It's about you, isn't it? It's about you. It's about one of your parts. Who's identifying with the dog who's projecting something onto the dog. And um, and so, and I was like, Oh yeah, of course it's about me and I don't want to feel it.
[00:43:59] You know, I don't really don't want to be with it. And she got me to stay with it. And then, yeah, of course, what was happening was that young parts in me who felt kind of abandoned, emotionally abandoned or neglected and not cared about were. really projecting and over identifying and over empathizing with the experience of this poor little dog who got sent into space alone and never got to come home.
[00:44:24] And it is really sad. And as I say it now, I still feel sad for the dog, but I'm not overwhelmed with, with Grief and sobbing tears like I was in my therapy session yesterday, because now I've kind of recognized that that was a part in me who is reacting that way and I can remind that part that, you know, I'm not a baby who's crying alone with a depressed mother, and I'm not, you know, a 12 year old in boarding school being bullied and excluded and I'm not a six year old child who's in bed alone, scared of the dark and afraid to go and ask for comfort.
[00:45:01] You know, none of those things are true anymore. And that then helps me to access that place of grown up me, who can still feel sad for the dog. I can still have compassion for the dog, but I'm not over empathizing and identifying with the dog like I was yesterday. So I hope that helps.
[00:45:20] Deb: Yeah, I think it really does. I can really relate to humor as a strategy, for managing emotions for titrating or making them safer and then like, and I tend to think of it as I make them go away and then I like slowly bring it.
[00:45:37] Phil: Yeah,
[00:45:37] Deb: bring it in, you know? 'cause I do have enough awareness that like, suppression is not my friend, but I'm always like, what's the safe way?
[00:45:48] Phil: Yeah. Love that. But I also think, like,
[00:45:50] Deb: I probably over, I think I have a lot of over management of like. Sometimes I get into the right way to feel an emotion, and I see that sometimes reflected in this work. People only want to do mind body work the right way, and that in and of itself is a certain kind of, like, self protective strategy.
[00:46:12] Phil: Absolutely. It's perfectionist parts who are so concerned with doing it right that they don't let us do it at all so it can kind of be a form of resistance and protection in that way. And, you know, I get I very much identify with that. I have parts who approach these things that way as well sometimes for sure.
[00:46:31] Deb: I'm wondering if I can ask you have you had any increase in symptoms? In these last few weeks, I know I've talked to a number of people who are like, Oh, I'm having more headaches or I'm having, or like, Oh, my back has been hurting. So I'm wondering if you've noticed anything of that sort.
[00:46:50] Phil: Yeah, that's a great question. I did have a. I don't like the word flair, but I can't think of a better one, so I will use the word flair, but just wanted to acknowledge I don't love it. So yes, I did have a bit of a flair around maybe about two weeks ago, probably when I was more in the initial activation and feeling really powerless and feeling really scared.
[00:47:15] For about three or four days, I had a lot of pain in my hip, which is like a old symptom. And it's one that often pops up if I'm feeling stressed or activated. And so, yeah, I had about three or four days of it, but then it settled. And since then, I haven't been any more symptomatic than usual, which is great, but I think that is also says just something about a point that I've got to in my healing and I'm a long haul recovery person, you know, I'm not one of these people who recovered quickly.
[00:47:46] It's been nearly five years for me now. And probably the last six months has been. The first time that I'm not getting long term symptom imperatives when stressful things happen. I'm now mostly just getting a couple of days when stressful things happen. So I have to say that feels like quite a testament to my healing that Despite everything that's going on in the world at the moment, I only had about three or four days of hobbling around and then, and then whatever was going on with my hip settled down again.
[00:48:17] So that was cool.
[00:48:18] Deb: Oh, that is so cool. I was on a call yesterday with Dr. Clark and one of the patient advocates was talking like now when something hurts, I think psychologically instead of physically like, you know, obviously barring impact or something happening.
[00:48:33] So when your hip started to hurt. What happens inside of you when you first notice it because I think it's sometimes really useful to take people through the journey, so that they can start to hear even just like the quality of attention that then we place and sometimes it's like, ah, my hip is hurting and then we take a beat.
[00:48:53] Yeah,
[00:48:54] Phil: it's pretty much, that's pretty much how it goes. There are always parts that react at first with like, Oh God, not again, you know, really? Why? You know, I know it's TMS, like, why can you just not? So there was frustration and annoyance and, kind of an oh no. But then there was also immediately, I was able to be like of course it makes total sense that this would have flared up this week.
[00:49:19] It's not because I've just walked a long way, because I quite often go for long walks, you know. It happened while I was out and about, which I think I was out in the city, walking around the Bristol Light Festival, and I think that that was a trigger because one of the effects when I was in that kind of dorsal vagal shutdown space was a feeling less safe, like just feeling unsafe around other people, not feeling as safe in the world, which is one of the major impacts of what's happening.
[00:49:45] So I think it's no coincidence that I was out, I walked quite a long way, but it was just a case of like, I just turned to look over one shoulder and the typical kind of TMS thing of like, I kind of felt like a ping and like, basically a muscle went into spasm, which then caused tightness and restricted movement in my hip.
[00:50:03] So it's, it's muscular. Something is happening in my body, but it's not because there's an injury. It's not because there's a problem. It's just because my brain, you know, reaches that tipping point and then decides to just tighten up in that kind of. You know, it's a defensive kind of fight flight reaction in my body, but it's a bracing.
[00:50:22] So I limped back to the car, didn't let it stop me, no, I didn't get an Uber or anything, I just, I just thought, well, I'll just walk, it's going to be uncomfortable, but I'll just walk anyway. And then I kind of hoped it would go away overnight, and it didn't, so there was a part the next morning that was like, oh no, why hasn't it gone away overnight?
[00:50:40] And then I have a dog, so I have to walk every day, it's non negotiable, well, it's pretty non negotiable. And then I say that, if it was really uncomfortable, I wouldn't push myself, so when I do have a symptom. Because a lot of my symptoms are symptoms which impact walking. If I do get symptoms it tends to be hip or ankle.
[00:50:58] So what I tend to do is I will take the dog out anyway and I will just say to myself if it's really uncomfortable and if it's really stiff today I'm not going to push myself too hard. I'm just going to go for a short walk and I'll see how it goes. And what almost invariably happens is that once I'm out and moving It kind of loosens up and settles down enough to a point that I can, you know, walk a reasonable distance and it's not too uncomfortable.
[00:51:23] I tried to practice that radical acceptance. I noticed the parts that were annoyed and the parts that were frustrated and the parts that were like, what if this lasts five months? And I tried to just do the, yeah, whatever. What if, you know, but also what if it doesn't and, and focused on some of the positives, which were that it wasn't hurting at night, because sometimes in the past when I've had issues with my hip, I've had a lot of nerve pain at night and it's been really uncomfortable sleeping and it wasn't impacting my sleep at all.
[00:51:51] I didn't have any pain at night. It was only when I was walking and Yeah I just tried to work with the parts that were freaking out and just carried on doing my routines and my self soothing and just really tried to look after myself and be kind to myself about it. And thankfully it settled.
[00:52:08] Deb: Thank you for that.
[00:52:10] There's, there's like a masterclass just in that experience alone because the ways that we, you know, normally respond, if you're not embedded in the mind body work, or understanding TMS, or having had your own experience, it really can lead to, moving less, really being fearful, being very fearful of not triggering any kind of discomfort or pain, and then the amplification of fear, and then the future worry and chronification.
[00:52:42] So, you're talking us through that. It was just really beautiful. And so those things may be happening all the time to people. We're going to get some rando pain, you know, or old pain that we thought was resolved. And yeah, it might come back and might start feeling twinges, like it's so normal.
[00:53:02] And I keep wanting to help people normalize we're, Oh, we're going to feel things. Especially when we don't make enough room to feel the emotions and connect with the distress that is very real, that is happening both on a parts level, like on a young part level, and then the adult distress that's happening of like, maybe I can't get a passport.
[00:53:24] Maybe I'm not allowed to leave this country. Maybe I can't, you know, I don't know what's going to happen with my job, you know, if you have a federal job. What's going to happen to the economy, um, you know, there are a lot of real world, real life in this moment fears, because there are a lot of unknowns and our imagination can offer us all kinds of scenarios that will only continue to amplify fear and distress.
[00:53:52] And so I think there's a quality of like, yeah, how to meet that distress. Well, you talked about radical acceptance and holding it loosely and kind of continuing to move through your day and do your activities and take care of yourself. Is there anything else?
[00:54:08] Here's my, is there anything else that we haven't spoken about or that I've missed or that you want to share.
[00:54:13] Phil: Yeah, I guess just in things in terms of things that are really helpful. And I know I probably, I'm probably going to be repeating myself, but it's probably better than missing anything just in terms of what's helping me at the moment and what might help other people, you know, regulation practices.
[00:54:28] Whatever works for you, but mine are Tai Chi or Qi Gong, self compassion meditation, JournalSpeak, and EFT tapping is another one that I really like. And then working with parts, getting to know your parts. No Bad Parts by Richard Schwartz is, you know, probably one of the best books on that topic.
[00:54:49] I also really like The One Inside by Tammy Sollenberger. That's a really quick, easy read for people who are interested in getting to know their parts, she has some sort of prompts and stuff in there as well. One of the things I try to do as well is like if I'm noticing that I am having a lot of fearful thoughts and a lot of fearful beliefs is doing a quick check in because quite often that is driven by our nervous system state.
[00:55:14] Like, if we are dysregulated, we have more fearful thoughts and everything seems worse. You know, if we're in a fight flight state, everything seems dangerous. And if we're in that kind of shutdown collapse state, everything feels impossible and overwhelming. And so if I notice that I'm starting to have those kind of thoughts and feelings, then that's a good indication to me that certain parts are activated and that my nervous system is dysregulated.
[00:55:39] So those regulation tools are really helpful for that. And seeking community, seeking support, you know, reaching out to people, finding safe, trusted people who you can have supportive, nurturing interactions with is, is just so helpful. You know, that conversation I had with you last week, when we planned this was, was just so helpful.
[00:56:03] I came away from that, you know, just feeling much more grounded and much more regulated, just from having seen your face and heard your voice and, and being able to talk to somebody who really understands, so, I think those things are incredibly helpful. And the last thing, yeah. Radical acceptance.
[00:56:22] And then that can be a tough concept because of course, we don't want to accept all the shitty stuff that's happening, but we can drive ourselves crazy if we don't, you know, and I love the, I'm not religious, I'm spiritual, but I'm not religious, but I really love the words of the serenity prayer for that which gets used in all the 12 step programs.
[00:56:42] You know, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. And for me, at the moment, I just keep coming back to that. I've got that laminated on my wall, literally two walls, two different rooms, because there are some things that we have literally no control over, but there is, there are places where we do have the power to make a difference, even in small ways, even in our communities, and I think if we can lean into where we do have some power to change, it can make it easier to accept where we don't.
[00:57:19] Deb: One of the things that I'll add to it is sometimes we don't know what the impact of our actions are in the moment, right? So holding a sense of like mystery and unknown, but in a positive way, which is like, I am going to, yes, make these phone calls. But one of the things that I've noticed in making these phone calls that I had no idea about.
[00:57:42] Was when I do get somebody on the phone, who's a real person, like their day is impacted. I can hear in their voice, they're like, thank you so much for calling and letting us know your thoughts about it. And there's almost like a secret message being delivered through it where I'm could feel their allyship.
[00:58:03] Cause they're in that role, I guess they're probably not allowed to have like a certain opinion. They have to kind of like be the funnel for all of this stuff. But there's a way in which it's like they are hearing things that are helping them support them throughout the day.
[00:58:20] And so, yeah, it can be things like smiling at people. You know, taking a moment to connect with somebody's humanity and then spreading that, right? The idea that emotions are contagious, and letting that be enough, like not having to know how it evolves like what the end result is and I think that's been helping me hold a sense of unknown because my whole body wants to be like, well, what's going to happen. I want to get to the end of the book, or the movie. Actually a friend of mine, who I met through theater he's in London and going to see Hadestown. So it's the original Broadway cast doing a production in London. And he's seen it multiple times and he's like, Each time, I hope that there's a different ending. But it has a tragic ending. It is a Greek tragedy and he's like, every time I want it to have a different ending and it's built into the show, like why we tell this story. I don't know that I believe in happy endings, you know, like I, yes, I want to believe that there will be a pendulum that swings the other way from all of the events that are happening in the world and really feeling like there's a lot of people who are getting a very quick lesson in civics that they didn't have before, and really recognizing this is not a superhero movie and there's not like one character who's going to come in and save us and it's all going to get tied up really neatly at the end.
[00:59:49] Phil: As you said that, I just noticed parts in me that were like, I want a superhero to come in and save us all. So just, just naming that, but I think. That also links into mind body stuff, like so often we want someone to save us from that too, so just, just noticing that connection. But yeah, one thing, if only there was a superhero, and sadly there's not.
[01:00:11] Deb: There's not, and it's been a little disturbing how much of our storytelling in our media really has created this kind of superhero narrative, which is so counter to what the world is really like. And so it feels even more painful. We've built these stories with these strong narratives in which there are heroes, and there's a hero's journey, and it's very clear, and they save the day, and, and I guess, you know, Superman came out of stories from World War II.
[01:00:43] I'm really recognizing my own having to let go of a certain innocence and a certain passivity that comes with a superhero.
[01:00:53] Phil: You know what is, what's coming up for me as you say that is You know, we get to be the hero of our own story, you know, no one is going to come and rescue us.
[01:01:05] That doesn't mean we can't reach out for support and friendship and community is really important. I'm not saying, you know, we're all like isolated islands, like we need community. But ultimately, you know, if we can tap into our own inner power and our own inner strength and we can regulate and support and soothe ourselves, then that allows us to be more empowered.
[01:01:30] We get to be our own hero, our own superhero. I have a part who's a superhero, by the way, he's like seven, but he can't rescue all of us. I'm afraid if only he could, he'd like to.
[01:01:43] Deb: Wouldn't that be amazing? I vote for him, right? I mean, I just think about like how demented it is. Some of our superhero stories are literally children, right?
[01:01:53] Like the whole Harry Potter series. We're expecting these children to save an entire world and how many of the adults are super villains. I feel a little bit like, Hey, wait, that's supposed to be a fake story, not a real story. And to offer something. It's a map for me and my body that helps me, which is this idea of a chorus, right? So that people can hold notes for a really long time, the note gets sustained, like the, whatever is being sung gets sustained, but people can drop out and take a breath.
[01:02:30] And come back in and that there's a way that like the work and the song gets sustained, but individually people are able to tend to themselves and take care of themselves. And you still get the beautiful experience of whatever is being sung. And it requires all of those voices working together, but everybody is not doing the same identical piece.
[01:02:57] The whole time that's been kind of helpful to remind myself like yes, that is actually another way to think about these things and maybe it is useful to to both be in the kid part right in the the inner child and the young part self but also let the maturity of what is needed in the moment also come through.
[01:03:23] Phil: Yeah, I love that. I love that metaphor and it works for external systems in communities where we have each other's backs and we take it in turns and sometimes we have more energy and sometimes we have less and need to lean on other people. And yeah, as you say, it also, the same is true for our internal systems is that we need our parts.
[01:03:42] I mean, one of the central tenets of IFS is that, is that we need our parts and none of them are bad. We need them, we want them, we don't wanna get rid of parts. But what we do want to do is to get to know our parts and get to be in relationship with them. And they support us and we collaborate with them.
[01:03:59] Deb: I would love to talk to you forever. Mm-hmm. And I also think that this is maybe a really great place to end. What I'm noticing in these things is like, Oh, I want to offer people the exact one thing that will make everything better. And so I like to just name that, because as we're talking about, it's really a process of discovery of that kind of inner relationship.
[01:04:25] But also showing the path forward, obviously these tools work, pain recovery is real, you know. And
[01:04:32] Phil: it's a buffet, not a set menu, that's what I always like to say, mind body healing is, and healing in general, it's a buffet, it's not a set menu. And a big part of that empowerment, for me actually, is helping clients to find what does work for them, find your own recipe for healing because there isn't one perfect way, unfortunately for those perfectionist parts. And, and there isn't a superhero who's going to come in and give you the one perfect way. It needs to be an active process.
[01:05:04] Deb: I know you were doing some workshops. Do you have anything coming up?
[01:05:08] Is there anything that? You want to share with the audience.
[01:05:11] Phil: Yeah, well I have been running approximately monthly workshops for people who want to learn more about internal family systems and how to connect with and get to know parts, and in particular, how people can use parts work to support a journaling practice.
[01:05:26] So I'm actually doing one of those tomorrow, but that won't be tomorrow when this podcast comes out. And at the moment, I don't have any other future dates lined up, but I probably will do another one in March. So depending on when this podcast comes out. Yeah, I will. I will be doing more of those in the future.
[01:05:43] I may have to take a break from them for a couple of months in the late spring because I've got a lot of trainings and other extra things coming up, but I certainly plan to keep offering those in the future. And if people do want to know more about IFS, there's some resources linked on my website, which is www. phildelahaye. com, I expect you can probably put it in the show notes because my name is a nightmare to spell, and people can also find me on social media. I'm on Instagram and I've got a Facebook page and that's at phildelahayeIFS.
[01:06:17] That sounds great. I'm looking forward to sharing these tools and skills and, you know, continuing to be in relationship with you and continue to collaborate.
[01:06:29] Deb: Thank you. Yeah.
[01:06:29] Phil: Thank you so much for giving me a platform where my voice could be heard, which feels so important at the moment that feels empowering.