I'm so honored to be talking to Vanessa Blackstone, the Executive Director of The Pain Psychology Center and co-author of The Pain Reprocessing Therapy Workbook. While we don't necessarily go through the workbook on this podcast, I really recommend you get it. Instead I was inspired by how Vanessa spoke about the idea of safety during a workshop I attended. I noticed that she didn't just lead with the idea of experiencing your symptoms through a lens of safety, but instead asked what does safety mean. And I wanted to bring in her voice both as a woman of color who works with people who have experienced trauma and might have lived experiences of marginalization from the mainstream. Safety is a feeling that can be cultivated but she suggests an empowered approach of self inquiry and curiosity, and beginning to embrace the belief, "I am not as fragile as I fear I am." She views PRT foundations as understand, practice, integrate, we explore how psychoeducation around neuroplastic pain, self compassionate witnessing and exposure to sensations, discomfort and stressors can become opportunities for building or rebuilding self trust. She shares so many fantastic client stories as well as her own growth and learning. I cannot wait to have her back on the podcast to share more of what will be coming from her work and The Pain Psychology Center. I emplore you to listen, relisten and take notes on what ideas you can start to practice now. And don't forget to pick up her book! Bio - Vanessa M. Blackstone, MSW, citizen of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians Nation, is executive director of the Pain Psychology Center. She earned her MS in social work from the University of Southern California. Following her own personal recovery from chronic pain, Vanessa began her career as a therapist in 2018. She was one of the first clinical consultants at the Pain Reprocessing Therapy Center and has helped train hundreds of practitioners in pain reprocessing therapy (PRT). In addition to chronic pain treatment, she specializes in sex therapy, substance use and recovery, mindfulness-based relapse prevention, and works on film sets as an onset wellness professional. Outside of her professional roles, Vanessa is a former foster youth who advocates for current and former foster youth by sharing her personal experiences in public speaking events. She lives in Los Angeles, CA.
I'm so honored to be talking to Vanessa Blackstone, the Executive Director of The Pain Psychology Center and co-author of The Pain Reprocessing Therapy Workbook.
While we don't necessarily go through the workbook on this podcast, I really recommend you get it. Instead I was inspired by how Vanessa spoke about the idea of safety during a workshop I attended. I noticed that she didn't just lead with the idea of experiencing your symptoms through a lens of safety, but instead asked what does safety mean. And I wanted to bring in her voice both as a woman of color who works with people who have experienced trauma and might have lived experiences of marginalization from the mainstream. Safety is a feeling that can be cultivated but she suggests an empowered approach of self inquiry and curiosity, and beginning to embrace the belief, "I am not as fragile as I fear I am."
She views PRT foundations as understand, practice, integrate, we explore how psychoeducation around neuroplastic pain, self compassionate witnessing and exposure to sensations, discomfort and stressors can become opportunities for building or rebuilding self trust. She shares so many fantastic client stories as well as her own growth and learning. I cannot wait to have her back on the podcast to share more of what will be coming from her work and The Pain Psychology Center.
I emplore you to listen, relisten and take notes on what ideas you can start to practice now. And don't forget to pick up her book!
Bio - Vanessa M. Blackstone, MSW, citizen of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians Nation, is executive director of the Pain Psychology Center. She earned her MS in social work from the University of Southern California. Following her own personal recovery from chronic pain, Vanessa began her career as a therapist in 2018. She was one of the first clinical consultants at the Pain Reprocessing Therapy Center and has helped train hundreds of practitioners in pain reprocessing therapy (PRT). In addition to chronic pain treatment, she specializes in sex therapy, substance use and recovery, mindfulness-based relapse prevention, and works on film sets as an onset wellness professional. Outside of her professional roles, Vanessa is a former foster youth who advocates for current and former foster youth by sharing her personal experiences in public speaking events. She lives in Los Angeles, CA.
Website - https://blackstonewellness.com/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/that.therapist
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100065282659040&mibextid=wwXIfr
Resources mentioned:
Pain Reprocessing Therapy Workbook - https://www.newharbinger.com/9781648483769/the-pain-reprocessing-therapy-workbook/
The Five Invitations - https://fiveinvitations.com/
The Pain Psychology Center - https://painpsychologycenter.com/
[00:00:00] Welcome to the Curiosity Cure podcast. I'm your host, Deb Melkin, master certified life coach, body worker hypnotist, trained in pain reprocessing by the pain psychology center, queer elder. Fat human on planet Earth. Here to help you evoke the power of simple neuroplasticity techniques rooted in shame free curiosity, so you can feel more, better, more of the time in the body you have today, and build the rich full life that you want to live.
[00:00:39] A quick disclaimer, this podcast is not a replacement for medical care. I am here to provide insights and techniques that can compliment your healthcare journey. But always consult with your healthcare provider for personalized advice.
[00:00:58] Deb: Welcome feelers and healers to the Curiosity Cure podcast and I'm your host Deb and I am like beyond, beyond, beyond excited to be here with Vanessa Blackstone, to talk about safety. I was in a workshop that Vanessa was doing, regarding the Pain Reprocessing Workbook that she authored and the way that she had asked people their relationship with the word safety warmed my heart, made me feel so seen, was super exciting.
[00:01:32] And I messaged her, right away to be like, will you come on this podcast and please have this conversation with me? Because I've said this a number of times on this podcast that sometimes when we use a word and it doesn't resonate with people, sometimes that can create kind of a distance from the work.
[00:01:53] So I want us to be really mindful about how different people are located differently within language and that because language is an embodied experience and pain recovery is an embodied experience. And so it's safety. I think it is important in this moment in time so that we can expand this idea so that also we can use these tools and people can, feel empowered in their healing.
[00:02:22] Vanessa: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:02:24] Deb: Thank you. So there's my little monologue. So Vanessa, why don't you share with my audience like who you are and what you do?
[00:02:33] Vanessa: Yeah, I'm really happy to be here. I, I noticed in the workshop that you felt seen or felt something when we kind of struck that question. And so I was so glad that you reached out.
[00:02:46] My name is Vanessa Blackstone. I've. I've been in this work for about eight years, I enjoy it greatly, very passionate about chronic pain, chronic symptoms and pain reprocessing therapy. I first started in this work as a therapist, focusing primarily on a different kind of modality though, very similar to pain reprocessing therapy.
[00:03:07] It's called mindfulness based relapse prevention. And it's a modality that is utilized in substance use or behavioral use and recovery when we're addicted to a specific substance or behavior. And it uses a tool called urge surfing, teaching folks to build tolerance to the feeling of distress of want them wanting to engage in their usual habits.
[00:03:29] And so it's very similar to pain, reprocessing and substance and somatic tracking. And I come from that realm, but while I was in that realm, I was struggling a lot with my own symptoms. I'm one of those people that just had like seven or eight different things going on at the same time and the attempt at, at attacking one just felt like impossible when all of them were compounding.
[00:03:52] So it was almost like a place of like, just radically accepting that I'm just forever going to be uncomfortable. And I'm just really, really good at powering through that. So I figured out a way to try to push through. And then I found this work. I had deferred on a PhD program because of my own chronic pain stuff and I didn't know what I was going to do.
[00:04:14] I felt really stuck and scared and I didn't feel better just because I paused my momentum. I felt worse. And then I started realizing that there was something to me learning to do less. Like, I had to learn it for the first time. Like, I'd never done it before. And then I started realizing that it wasn't just about productivity stuff, career, school, whatever.
[00:04:37] That it was this, like, I learned sense of feeling unsafe in everything all the time constantly, and the more that I explored in my own therapy, I started realizing that it wasn't just in my body, but it was actually in the people around me. And then I found pain reprocessing therapy through a mentor and previous supervisor of mine.
[00:04:58] I think she was recommending it as like a treatment, but I took it as a job opportunity. I was like, Oh, that's great. I can work here. I interviewed, at the time it was Alan Gordon and Christy Uipi, and they were late to my interview. I will forever say that. I was really anxious and like upset in the waiting room that they were 15 minutes late, had to practically harass Alan to get him to respond to me so that he would tell me if I got the job or not.
[00:05:22] And he very casually was like, Oh, yeah, well, you're great. You'd be great. I'm like, okay. And, Then it was all from there. We went from a team at the Pain Psychology Center to about 10 of us to now over 45 of us. And we're busy and we do a lot of work to help folks heal. And our primary specialty is the modality that was created at our practice pain reprocessing therapy using the brain's neural pathways to unlearn and relearn the symptoms that keep us stuck learning new ways to respond and recover.
[00:05:58] Deb: Hallelujah. So good. I remember before I studied PRT at the pain psychology center, I had my own experience first using curable. I was a massage therapist, and I was like, Oh, I have to now go learn everything about this and have done that. So it's amazing. I remember looking at all the bios of all the people at the Pain Psychology Center and I remember seeing you there and feeling so excited and also, because I want to name this, although it might feel burdensome to you, that it's a very white field and I feel some kind of way about that.
[00:06:42] Vanessa: You and me both. It does not burdensome at all. I mean, I think that's almost what fuels my urgency to like take on a million things because I want to be that representation badly, because I feel it, I see it. And it's very apparent when you're looking through teams and websites, 100 percent with you.
[00:07:03] Deb: Yeah. I have some people that I'm recruiting therapists that I know that I'm like. I think would really be aligned with this work. So I will send them your way and I'll send them this conversation. So this was a little bit of an aside, but also it's so relevant to this idea of safety. Right. When we think about entering a field, who is going to be in there, who is going to actually be answering these questions and what is their perception of safety and I think that that's essential. I remember doing online training and they had a case study and you had to respond with their adverse childhood experiences.
[00:07:42] But the person who's in the case study was a woman who had was an amputee and getting a divorce and then getting her second and last leg amputated
[00:07:54] Vanessa: and
[00:07:56] Deb: her husband is leaving her.
[00:07:58] Oh,
[00:07:58] and then they wanted me to answer what are her adverse childhood experiences and I was like, but she's having experiences now
[00:08:05] Vanessa: now
[00:08:05] Deb: that are dangerous. She is losing her primary caretaker. She doesn't know how is she going to recover from this surgery? I was so mad. It was very mad. And I wrote to them.
[00:08:17] Vanessa: Yeah.
[00:08:18] Deb: But it made me go, do you not understand disability? Do you not understand what it means for somebody to lose their current primary caretaker? Totally. And they don't come with the surgery. Somebody comes home and takes care of you.
[00:08:30] Vanessa: 100%. It's so interesting. Like I obviously, obviously, you know, we talk about safety, like obviously exploring like adverse childhood experiences are a really big part of this work.
[00:08:42] And I think sometimes, um, sometimes we forget that like big T trauma, little T trauma is absolutely applicable to like now in adulthood. Those can all form now. You know, and those are really big parts of, like, our immense lack of safety right now in our lives, and for a lot of us, like, the lack of safety just continues, and it feels like this is just a baseline in which you live your life, and I'm sure that's what that client was experiencing is, like, there's massive Unfathomable, big T trauma in so many different ways is happening right now.
[00:09:19] And so all of the other things that make up who we are and what we experienced, it's important, but like, your brain isn't going to focus on that. Your brain is just going to focus on what's right in front of you.
[00:09:30] Deb: Yes. Thank you. What you just said is so relevant for this moment in time. And for a lot of people, it's all the moments in time, right? I think, what's happening now politically in the United States is, is a campaign of terror and like lots of fast illogical to many of us actions that are happening that we don't yet know the impact of, although some people's lives are being impacted immediately, you know, transgender people's lives are being impacted immediately.
[00:10:01] Immigrants lives are being impacted immediately and then there's just this overhang and threat of, you know, What destabilization, what is this going to affect in the long term?
[00:10:13] Mm-hmm .
[00:10:14] Deb: So it is a time of feeling very, very unsafe. Mm-hmm in our own country, in our own families, in our own lives, in our own bodies, in these things that two months ago felt a different kind of way.
[00:10:30] Vanessa: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:10:33] Deb: So when we bring this approach of rewiring the brain to assess threat or danger. I mean, with mind body work, right? We're trying to start with like the sensations, the uncomfortable sensations in the body that we think mean there's some kind of damage happening. So we can start there instead of trying to maybe like applying a mind body lens to all of the problems in the world is maybe not overreaching.
[00:11:00] Wouldn't that be nice?
[00:11:02] Vanessa: It's so nice.
[00:11:04] Deb: But it's like, how can people still pursue feeling well and pain reprocessing amidst.
[00:11:11] Vanessa: Overall, I think, maybe this is where my approach and language and the way that I train my team to utilize pain reprocessing therapy in a way that validates current present experiences is taking this approach without toxic positivity. Let me just preface that without overemphasizing a positive perspective to essentially almost like gaslight yourself into like trying to be positive and optimistic and pretending like this is okay, this is allowed to be here.
[00:11:45] It's okay to not like and experience, what's happening, what it feels like, what's going on in your body. But maybe our brains all work really well, they just work too well. And it's dialed up and we're getting the danger signals on top of more. We're getting more on top of it because our brain is so good at surviving that it will dial it up and it's hard to gauge which is what. Is it from what's going on in our country, in our world, 100 percent. And then what level of this sensation is also coming from my overprotective nervous system.
[00:12:24] I like to try to look at things through a lens of your brain working so well, that it works too well. And it's doing its job 200 percent of the time. And we are just trying to learn how to listen to ourselves with more grace, validation, room to breathe, boundaries, knowing when we need to exercise self compassion because it will be useful, knowing when we need to be angry because that is useful too, all of it really.
[00:12:54] Because I think sometimes it's so tricky when we're sending a message that says, I know you feel like you're in danger, but you're actually safe. Sometimes that can kind of bypass the reality of the danger around us, and I just like to be really careful before I send that message to anyone that I'm working with because the reality is, is that things are really unsafe and you feel it because your brain works.
[00:13:20] Why it's as intense as it is, is what we're looking at. Does it need to be a constant 10 or can we find pockets of joy in your life that allow you to feel rested and regulated even when there is like a dumpster fire of a country going on at this time?
[00:13:38] Deb: All of that is so great because there's something that feels powerful and a change in this narrative where oftentimes people who are experiencing chronic pain and chronic symptoms think that their body is broken or deficient versus a brain that is actually working really well.
[00:13:57] It's hypersensitive and maybe we want to keep a certain level of sensitivity, right. Or understand the root of that sensitivity and hold it with love and grace and also kind of train it to chill out a little bit. I don't know if that's exactly the way that I want to say it, but there's something that is empowering about being able to turn down the intensity of an experience and having that kind of clarity of judgment.
[00:14:24] So when you're working with clients because you have a lots of different roles, right? You're you work with clients, but you also lead a team. Yes, and you wrote a book. Yeah, that's incredible Yes, like super impressive. Thank you for putting your work out into the world
[00:14:42] Vanessa: Absolutely.
[00:14:43] I'm so happy that it's received in the way that it is. And there's more coming. There's more things work being worked on right now that are for these specific populations of people for those that are often invalidated with their symptoms and certain groups for marginalized communities. All of those things are coming this year.
[00:15:02] And so I'm just really glad that everybody is so open to receiving them and asking me to do them. It means a lot.
[00:15:08] Deb: That's fantastic. So do you have a basic, I know that you've said some of it, but like, let's say you're working with an individual client. How do you help them parse this? When you're working with a client for whom this information is new. Right. Maybe they're very focused on their symptoms and the way that their symptoms have affected their life, but somehow they have landed in front of you.
[00:15:34] Vanessa: Yeah.
[00:15:35] Deb: Right. So there is some willingness or buy in or interest, or maybe for some people, this is like their final option, right?
[00:15:44] They've tried everything else. I know that that happens quite often.
[00:15:48] Vanessa: Yes, absolutely.
[00:15:49] Deb: Yeah. And say that they are somebody who lives in a marginalized body or has a marginalized experience.
[00:15:57] How do you describe safety? Like, how do you help them resource that inside themselves? And maybe that's not the first thing that you talk about, but I'm going to let you take that vague question and run with it.
[00:16:10] Vanessa: No, it makes sense. I, I think that a lot of the times people are coming here with understandable amounts of urgency and intensity and making this work.
[00:16:20] And I get that. I get it so much. And I know that like, you've worked so hard. And oftentimes people have even waited on a wait list and even moved finances around to be able to make this work. So there's like a lot of pressure coming in and, you know, I say this in like a non boisterous way, like as I've grown in this field too, I get a lot of clients that have waited just for me and have asked for me or asked for the next best thing next to Alan.
[00:16:46] And so I feel the pressure to be that plethora of information and just be that person of healing. And, you know, I, I feel it. too, and I, and I know that we come into this work just wanting to feel better, but the way that I approach this, not only for the client's benefit, but honestly, so that I can show up in a regulated and grounded way and take some of the pressure off of myself.
[00:17:11] Is before we get into the tools and your day to day new schedule with PRT and as if that's a thing, that's not a thing, but I'm just sometimes people come here with that thinking that that's a thing before we get into, like, creating your PRT schedule or, you know, any of the, like, this is how you're going to attack this.
[00:17:30] I'm going to take a step back and I want to know your story. You don't have to uncover every single rock in your childhood in order for me to understand some themes of what you've experienced, but tell me what happened. Tell me what got you here. And then that will give me more information, maybe about some ways in which you've experienced life.
[00:17:51] I'll ask a client their Pain story, symptom story or what brought them here and they'll tell me something like I just put so much pressure on myself I'm like, oh, there's there's like a nugget and I'll back up. Where did you learn that from? Who taught you to put pressure on yourself or who put pressure on you and that helps us back up even more and get a little bit of space and they'll tell me like oh it came from my dad or my parents in general, like there's just everybody's very high functioning.
[00:18:20] And so I felt like I was the only one that was barely keeping up and, oh, okay. What was the messaging around that? Like, what were you told if you weren't doing well? What were times in which you weren't doing well? Question that I love asking is how do people respond to you when you fell and got hurt?
[00:18:36] What did they do when you like fell and scraped your knee or something on the playground? I know that my mom was a teen mom, and has a lot of her own barriers and struggles and struggles to show up in a regulated way. And so sometimes, when we would be hurt, it felt like it was maybe more about her, because she would come in with a lot of panic and a lot of freaking out, and it would make you freak out.
[00:18:58] So it helped me understand, when I was experiencing symptoms, maybe why I would freak out so much and maybe why I would even call someone who wasn't really regulating and helpful, but maybe validated the same chaos that I was experiencing internally. And I was just used to that. And that was a part of my own work to learn that over times, maybe that meant setting boundaries with somebody who didn't feel necessarily safe.
[00:19:22] And grounding, and that was a really hard part of my own journey in this work, but these kinds of questions and understanding the story help us back up from the intensity to be the deliverer of tools and information and just take a break and trying to get to know why are you here? And it really helps us hold each other accountable.
[00:19:43] It helps me hold myself accountable from being a problem solver. Because I am. I'm a, I'm a good problem solver for myself and others. And it doesn't always serve us well. That's why we're here. Right? It also helps me regulate my client who's trying to be the problem solver and the fixer of their own pain because to be honest, if that worked, it would have worked already.
[00:20:04] You wouldn't be here. If that worked for you. That's why it's not working. And we have to take a step back and really approach this from a different angle. And it's going to be uncomfortable, probably a little bit more painful. Reinstate some uncertainty that you're desperately trying to get away from, but we're here in this together, and if I can just understand your story, it will give me better insight about why this person gravitates back to this familiar chaotic state.
[00:20:29] Deb: I resonate with so many things that you said. There's something about the validation seeking, that's a big part of this that is sometimes, I mean, I see is a thing that has, that kept me in pain and that keeps a lot of my clients in pain, which is when we're in distress, we want that to be seen.
[00:20:51] And then that sometimes turns into a certain kind of validation of the symptom, right, of, of our underlying belief about what's wrong with us. And then there is something else that you said about uncertainty. So I think those two ideas, both validation and uncertainty, pick whichever one you want to talk about in regards to this population of people who are dealing with chronic pain and chronic symptoms.
[00:21:19] Vanessa: I think both fit the climate of where we're currently at right now in general, and I don't know. Uncertainty always just calls to me so much. Though not every provider that somebody may see will be validating, we can hope that when you see a provider, especially a therapist or a coach that, you know, the whole foundation of their work is providing validation.
[00:21:42] So, we, we hope that that's a part of the work and that can really be built by the relationship, but uncertainty is something that we navigate both as providers and as clients, just as human beings in general, and I don't know, I find myself always being really called to that specific topic. I probably talk about it in every single session, every single day that I have sessions.
[00:22:06] And it's because this is a human experience, feeling really uncomfortable with uncertainty. I think at its core, uncertainty will forever be inherently uncomfortable. There's nothing we can do about that. I hate saying that sometimes, but it's like, it's the truth. It gives us a little bit of space of feeling like there's a perfect formula that we need to find to navigate that.
[00:22:28] We need to almost radically accept that uncertainty will be inherently uncomfortable forever and always. And it's not easy. It doesn't feel safe. It's hard to know how to navigate it. It's easier to help others navigate it versus when it's your own stuff. Like, I talk about this stuff all day, every day, but I still struggle with, like, regulating my own nervous system.
[00:22:49] And I'm, it's because I'm a human, you know, and it's because I hate uncertainty, as all of us do. So I think that's an important thing to just preface, that this will forever be a thing. So there's not one big resolve that we need to gravitate to. It's about finding ways to hold it differently. To navigate it. What we tell ourselves when we're experiencing uncertainty and who we talk to, when we're experiencing uncertainty. Creating safety networks of people that can help us feel regulated, even when things are entirely unsafe, right?
[00:23:21] Because the people in our lives can be the perpetrators of fear of uncertainty. They can also be the people that remind us to hold it differently. I think overall uncertainty is just one of those things that we're forever learning how to navigate and there's different phases of our lives that give us permission to react to it differently.
[00:23:41] A couple years ago, I've experienced grief before, but I've never experienced it like this. A couple years ago, my favorite person in the world, my grandmother, my, all my grandparents raised us primarily, but this one was my favorite person and she passed away and I've never felt anything like that before.
[00:24:01] I felt hopeless and scared, but that was like a different degree that I can't even like fully put into words. I didn't know how I'm supposed to live a life without this person there. Also, my parents are really young, so my grandparents are also really young. So the idea that this was happening now was really hard to wrap my mind around, too, because I didn't expect this to happen.
[00:24:25] I mean, right, the certainty that she was here was Good. And then now that she's not all of a sudden, my mind is like, Oh my God, now the rest of them are going to die. And when, and I just, I could not handle that, that feeling. And I was really distracted, right. You know, rightfully so for a long time. And actually, to be frank, we had started the workbook shortly after this.
[00:24:47] And I remember even reaching out to Olivia, my coauthor, And telling her like the table of contents and the chapter she sent over that you have to do when you're getting started. I just I had to kind of break down to her and I was like, I literally can't like see straight when I'm looking at this.
[00:25:02] So I'm not quite sure how to figure out how to contribute. And I'm so sorry. And I was just like, I'm so upset. And of course, she was so warm and understanding and just so nice and safe and kind. But to me, this was like the largest uncertainty that I think I'd ever gone through. I've done it with symptoms, I've done it with everything else, but this was the one that kind of felt like it broke my brain for a little bit.
[00:25:25] And what I learned over time are some things that like sound nice on the surface, but I also kind of hate them, just a little bit because it means navigating the discomfort. And this is something that I give to my clients, and to be honest, I'll tell my clients the same story. I'm like, I've been there with levels of uncertainty that some of them feel manageable and some of them just kind of feel like they break your brain.
[00:25:48] And it's hard to know how to navigate, but there's a few things that are core to a body of work called the five invitations. Discovering what death can teach us about living fully. It's the subtitle of the book. It's a great read. I've read it multiple times and it's really because it actually relates strongly to pain reprocessing therapy, but there are a few things that I've held on in there that have really helped me and really related to this work and something that I will bring to my clients.
[00:26:19] This book invites you to do these five things. And he focuses on these five things as a way of, again, navigating the uncertainty. Some of the invitations that I've reworded through my own understanding is cultivating don't know mind, recognizing that most of us are really connected to our rational thinking minds and the idea of losing control is frightening, and just asking ourselves, can we not be so ready to know?
[00:26:48] Is it okay if I take a break from that urgency and give myself some space to say this moment right here talking about my fear of uncertainty is enough? And where do I feel that in my body? And that's another invitation. Is bring all of you to the forefront. The part of you being aware of what this uncertainty feels like in your body is not afraid, but curious.
[00:27:12] Let's see if we can sparse it out a little bit to see what does my tongue do in my mouth when I'm afraid, my fingers, my bottom, and so on. What is the whole story of what's going on here? The next one is resting in the middle of things. I hate that. I hate that. That one pisses me off because I'm like, I have a momentum.
[00:27:34] I don't want to slow down. And it's something that I felt in my process with grief. I didn't, I was like, I just want to get through the day. I just want to get through the day. And then I would crash at the end and sit in the uncertainty trying to go to sleep and my mind would just not stop and I would have these moments of realizing like this person is not here anymore and I would get vertigo symptoms again like I had before I felt like I like was like floating above my bed but also like trapped in it.
[00:28:06] I couldn't breathe. Everything was just really intense and it was because like, I have such a hard time resting, because resting means being uncomfortable and embracing the uncertainty, and that's scary, and that's where we can come in and learn how to navigate that just slightly differently, bringing all of us to the forefront, can we not be so ready to know, resting in the middle of things, and there's a few other invitations in there that are wonderful, that are not Presently coming to the front of my brain, but great things to read if anybody is interested.
[00:28:41] But I just found myself, really relying on those things. And then I found that they worked in everything. Not just grief, but in life. And what we're experiencing now. is we can't really know what's going on. All we know is that it's horrible and it's scary and it's invalidating and it's uncertain and it feels like it's leading into this like doomsday place because it is.
[00:29:06] We don't know also at the same time what is happening in this moment, right now, all we're trying to do is just sit here and work, and our mind is just going. How can we bring all of us to the forefront, be more curious, you learn that this is a moment of rest, maybe, even as you're in the middle of writing an email, and your brain just derailed itself to the country, and grief, and pain, and tomorrow, and everything else.
[00:29:35] It's really all about learning to work with our nervous system, instead of against it, working with that uncertainty, knowing that it feels like it's going to eat us alive in this moment, but the best thing that we can do is notice where that sensation is coming up first, and then see if we need to dialogue with the uncertainty.
[00:29:56] Deb: My whole body was just like tingling and feeling really happy, listening and kind of like floating along your words. Because it's like the antidote to urgency, right? And it's very hard to have the intensity without the urgency, and I want to name, it's like, at the same time, there feels like there's a need for urgency.
[00:30:20] You know, this is a very challenging moment, right? There's an urgency, but an urgency for what? Sometimes I find myself urgently scanning the news or posting angry things on Facebook. And when I think about those actions, I'm like, those actions are not creating the results that I am hoping for in the world.
[00:30:41] So for me, what has been revealed is an incredible sense of powerlessness. Um, which I do not like. Also not my favorite thing.
[00:30:52] Vanessa: No, not at all.
[00:30:53] Deb: There's a lot of things in this process of becoming aware of my own strategies. Also being a person who loves to fix things. My brain wants to just be like, yeah, if we just do this one next thing, yeah, that's going to be the ticket.
[00:31:10] And so some of it is stepping away from the strategies. And, but then it's always like into what, right, into what I'm hearing you say is like this feeling comfortable with the unknown, embracing it, getting curious.
[00:31:26] What does it mean, so if we're pulling like the straight PRT language of like telling your brain that these sensations are safe.
[00:31:35] Vanessa: Yeah.
[00:31:36] Deb: And maybe those are not the words that you actually use, but I want to break that down because when you read The Way Out, You know, that's a big, foundation of the work, which is sensory reappraisal.
[00:31:50] Sometimes there's a, I find even in myself, I get rebellious when I, when I hear the word reappraisal as if like, Oh, I've just been doing it wrong. Like, Oh, I have a body that's just been doing it wrong or it's something, right. Because I understand this work, I'm able to step out of that and understand it in a different way.
[00:32:10] And that helps me then kind of enter, enter back with that curiosity. And also I've been through it enough, through so many symptoms enough and through it and on the other side that, I have a foundation of trust that neuroplastic pain is a real thing. So I'm not every single time dealing with every symptom that arises, with a fear response. So yeah, let's tackle the, like, telling your brain that this sensation is safe and not dangerous.
[00:32:42] Vanessa: Yeah, I'm a real big fan on play on words. It helps you feel validated. It helps you navigate the uncertainty. It helps you feel seen, you know, sometimes it really comes down to just it Language, you know, a play on words to be able to find something that actually works for us.
[00:32:59] So, oftentimes when I'm talking about feeling safe, how to respond to your sensations in a way that reminds you that you are safe in your body. I like to change that in general to a phrase that I use everywhere all the time, and that is, I am not as fragile as I fear I am. I don't have to insert this core belief in this moment that I am safe because sometimes it's not that way.
[00:33:23] The world isn't that way, my body doesn't feel like that way, the people around me are not that way, but maybe, maybe I'm not as fragile as I fear I am. Maybe there is a more empowered stance that I can take when I'm feeling uncomfortable, so that I learn new ways to respond to it, to re engage my nervous system in a state that feels like I got this.
[00:33:43] Even when I am uncomfortable. And you'd be surprised. I mean, probably not you, but like people in general would be surprised that you'd be shocked at how well that works, how much empowerment that gives us, how it gives us a little bit more of a pep in our step. And it reminds us that if I am uncomfortable, I can handle this because I'm not that fragile.
[00:34:04] I've been through a lot of stuff. I've seen a lot of stuff. I have felt a lot of stuff and I can handle this. Even when it's uncomfortable, it allows us to breathe better, to stand taller, to sit straighter, to rest in the middle of things and loosen the tension in our shoulders that says I have something to brace for.
[00:34:24] Right? All of the above. And so, of course, there is a classic neuroplastic case with pain reprocessing therapy that we can come in and say you are safe. And that ends up being someone's message. And if that's your message, that's wonderful. You use that and you bring it home with that message every single time.
[00:34:46] But if there's something within you that's like, But I'm, I'm not though, because I literally can't put my life down. I can't put things down, because I have no room to. No time, no permission, it's impossible for me to do that. I have to be on all the time. Sometimes we adapt that new message I'm not as fragile as I fear I am.
[00:35:10] It sends the same message and the same reminder to your nervous system. It just allows us to feel a little bit more seen and like we're approaching it in a way that works for us.
[00:35:20] Deb: That's really cool. I like that. It also allows us to look back and, and view our past through a lens of empowerment and yeah, there's just a different energy to it.
[00:35:35] Vanessa: There is. It kind of goes back to what I mentioned about what I say to clients in the beginning. It's like, who taught you that you were fragile? Who said that to you? Where did you learn that? Either somebody directly taught it to you by saying you're too sensitive and too emotional. I got that all the time.
[00:35:50] Or you watched other people struggle with that. You felt it in life in some way because nobody told you that you were strong, right? There's, there's some kind of messaging somewhere that we can start sparsing out to help us recognize like, Oh, I learned that as a narrative and I, my nervous system does it to me unconsciously because the nervous system is trying to help you.
[00:36:11] And so it's sending you a message. It thinks it has to, Hey, be careful. You're fragile. Be careful you can't handle that. It's too much. Be careful. You cannot walk past 15 minutes or be careful. You cannot be in that social situation. It's a wonderful thing that our brain does to try to keep us safe. That keeps us stuck.
[00:36:29] And it might keep us safe from real things that are going on around us, but it can also actually disempower us at the same time. There's a boundary within that, that I encourage people to practice all the time, and I say it because I do it for myself all the time. And I'll, there's a story attached to this, one time, Alan, you know, Alan Gordon created pain reprocessing therapy. We were talking back and forth and I, I was like, Oh, I don't really feel good today. And I was just saying, I don't know. I was saying something to the degree of like not feeling a hundred percent. And Alan was like, you take on way too much. And right when he said that, I was like, ugh I I, I do historically.
[00:37:05] And I started freaking out and I was like, Oh my God, that's why I feel so bad. And, and then I stopped and like, I don't think that I can't. And he was like, hello, I'm like, sorry. I'm like in my head. And then I came back and I said. Don't say that. Don't say that. Inquire with me. Don't say that, because my brain's really suggestible, and I just freaked out thinking that I took on too much, and that's why I feel the way that I do.
[00:37:27] But I'm, like, on my period, and, like, I'm just, like, uncomfortable, and there's other things happening. You know, like, I'm not that fragile. I can handle a lot. I'm a person that can easily see six to eight clients a day and do all of my executive director stuff and then write a chapter while I'm eating dinner and like, and, and go to bed being like, Ooh, that was a day, but I can handle it.
[00:37:48] It's not ideal. I can do it. Um, but inquire with me first. Always just ask. It's a boundary, again, that I have and a boundary that I ask people to exercise and even when I said that to Alan, he was like, Oh, okay. You know, it sounded like you were doing a lot. I was like, no, no, no, I am, but I can handle it.
[00:38:05] It's not too much. Right. Boundary of inquiry. Ask. Don't assume. Ask yourself before you assume. Ask other peoples to ask ask you, how are you doing? Rather than you're doing too much, right? Rather than having somebody tell you what you're doing, which causes a sense of defensiveness. Let's just inquire first.
[00:38:25] Always inquire, right? Assumption leads to defensiveness and leads to fear. Inquiry allows us to be a little bit more curious.
[00:38:34] Deb: Oh, damn. That's just a whole nother podcast. Um, I often have people tell me that I'm doing too much and I get really mad about it because I have a great capacity and love for doing things.
[00:38:50] There's like not an alternative version of me that I want to cultivate. There's like a lot of nuance in it. But what you just said about being suggestible is so powerful because we're taking in all of these subconscious messaging all the time. Everybody is not just people with pain, not just people with TMS personalities or however we want to describe it.
[00:39:14] Um, everybody is taking in information on a subconscious level and there's a world of opinions out there and in some ways I'll, I'll see this in with symptoms when people are in symptom themed Facebook groups or groups when, you know, like, p. E. M. Post exertional malaise. So that in my mind is a neuroplastic symptom. Some people are great at being really definitive and I am more in the curiosity leads us to wanting to create exposure experiences and have corrective experiences.
[00:39:55] So this is where I'm going, when you're talking about talking to your brain and resisting those messages about being fragile and even having a boundary, you were able to kind of hear what Alan was saying, which I'm sure from him, he thought he was being very helpful.
[00:40:13] Vanessa: Yeah.
[00:40:14] Deb: Um. And then you are able to know yourself so well to hear how it was interpreted by your own brain, by your nervous system. And you're like, Hmm, that's not the direction I want to go. Right. And also it's not really accurate. So I love that you're just able to download that. So cool.
[00:40:33] Yeah.
[00:40:34] Because what happens is people hear things like you're doing too much. Or you exercise too much, that walk was too long, this, whatever the activity was, was too much, and your body can't handle it. And then people then change their behavior based on that piece of information, which is essentially an opinion.
[00:40:58] Vanessa: Right.
[00:40:59] Deb: So in this work, in part of the kind of training our brain, we often are trying to invite people into experiences with exposure of the activity that they're avoiding and create what we call a corrective experience. So how does safety tie into that, because sometimes imagining doing more or imagining doing something can bring up a lot of fear.
[00:41:23] Especially if it's an activity that people avoid and consider avoiding it as taking good care of themselves, right? So we're really challenging somebody to do something that maybe they perceive as dangerous. I just want to hear more about PRT from that lens. And I know this is moving away from kind of, I mean, it is, and it's not moving away from the socialization and the marginalization question, right?
[00:41:47] Because that's also located in like, what we've learned about who we are and what kind of activities are safe based on what we grew up with. I don't know. Now I'm literally rambling.
[00:42:01] Vanessa: No, I'm following
[00:42:02] Deb: if you're, you're following me. Perfect.
[00:42:05] Vanessa: Always.
[00:42:07] Deb: Fantastic. I so appreciate you. Yeah. Today's definitely one of those days where I get it.
[00:42:12] I left half my brain in my bathroom renovation. That's okay.
[00:42:17] Also being postmenopausal means having a very loose and relaxed relationship with language.
[00:42:23] Vanessa: And there we
[00:42:24] go.
[00:42:25] Deb: Thoughts.
[00:42:25] Vanessa: I love it.
[00:42:27] Deb: So, which holding that loosely has been very, very helpful. Yes. Okay. So I think that's the next thing that I want to talk about, which is this idea of safety and also moving into exposure and corrective experiences and whether that's like physically or emotionally or socially, any one of those things.
[00:42:47] And even if we want to talk about like Politically. Yeah. For sure. That also I think folds in there really nicely.
[00:42:55] Vanessa: Mm hmm. The way that I look at pain reprocessing therapy as a few different like mechanisms. One pain reprocessing therapy is like couples therapy, you know, between like your brain and your body and something happened between the two of them, one cheated on the other or something and like trust was lost and like it just like can't ever be in the same house without hating the other one or you know.
[00:43:15] And you can't divorce it. That's kind of what sucks. You can't like break up and like get separate homes like that. We're stuck, you know. This is kind of like couples therapy, we're trying to get your brain and your body to communicate with each other, so it feels like we're more on the same page.
[00:43:30] Right? We're coexisting and cohabitating in a different kind of way, and it's okay to get frustrated with them, but it's how we respond to them. The more that we scream at them, or the more that we ignore them, it just fuels the continued problems. We have to learn how to talk to each other so that we know what's going on, and we know what to do, and we know what we need.
[00:43:48] Alright, so this is a couple's therapy and pain reprocessing therapy is also like the light down the tunnel. That sounds so cheesy and I always hate when I say that, but it's true. It's like the light down the tunnel so that you can see the other end and it's okay if you Have a hard time seeing it on your own, you can rely on the workbook, you can just rely on the teachings or you can rely on your relationship with your provider to be the light at the end of the tunnel so that you can see the way and we do that by building the psychoeducation in what's going on in our bodies, what the messages from our brain to our bodies are and why this is happening, understanding our pain story, understanding how we got here, right?
[00:44:28] I have three ways in which I love to introduce this is understand, practice, integrate. We have to understand in order to know what the heck is going on, and we have to practice it. Together, consistently, and in a way that actually serves us, and then we figure out how to integrate it into our lives.
[00:44:44] By doing that, it rebuilds the trust that we've lost with ourselves over time, or the trust that we've never had in the first place, whether it's with us, the people around us, or the world that we are in. This is about trusting with the sense of, I know what to do when I am not okay, I know how to navigate this uncertainty, and I know how to remind myself that if I feel uncomfortable, this is a message coming from my brain that I need to pay attention to.
[00:45:12] The essence of this work is about building trust. And it's not about building trust to say that nothing bad can happen ever, because that is not the climate that we're in. And for a lot of us, that is not the kind of families that we live in either. We have to be aware of people's crap so that we know what to look out for.
[00:45:30] And it does kind of keep you on high alert a little bit, right? But There's nothing wrong with being aware. It's how we are aware and the trust that we have in ourselves to say, if I'm uncomfortable, it's because there's something I need to tend to and pay attention to. Not necessarily an indication of immediate physical threat, right?
[00:45:49] It's a sign that I need to tend to myself first and then see where my attention needs to go. And I am trusting that if I am feeling this discomfort, it's because my brain, it means to send it. If it's a false alarm, if it's an accurate interpretation of what is going on, that is safety. It's understanding and knowing how to practice and respond differently.
[00:46:08] So that it actually looks like something we can integrate into our lives in a very realistic way. And I just think that it's so important to know at its foundation, this work is about rebuilding trust with yourself. Feeling like you're communicating with yourself a little bit better so that we can pay attention to people, and the world around us and even things that are actively dangerous. A couple of years ago, my significant other and I were in a motorcycle accident. We ride motorcycles and on this day we were on the same one course, which actually may have been a good thing in a way, weird way. I don't know if I would have been okay with like him getting hurt and not me. I don't know. We went through it together. It was an experience and we were both on the same bike and we got hit by a car and we flipped and flew like 30 or 40 feet out into incoming traffic. And it was not fun. But you know, what's interesting is I always would ask him, what do you think would happen if we ever got into a motorcycle accident?
[00:47:01] And he'd always look at me, and he's not a type A person at all, he'd always look at me and he's like, I don't know, why are you thinking about that? And I'm like, because it could happen. And what if it would happen? And then what would happen after that? And how long would it take? Would we ever ride again?
[00:47:13] What would happen to our bodies? And, you know, he's like, Stop. And I would always talk about it. What would happen? What do you think would happen? And then it happened. And, It was so interesting because I was actually less afraid of it having happened than I was when I anticipated it maybe happening.
[00:47:32] When it happened, I was like, Oh, that's what, that's what happens when you get hit by a car. And whoa, we were so lucky that we essentially like stood up and walked away, not without injury, but like we did, thankfully. But it was so interesting to me that we could go through this recovery process together, like being weirded out at these significant injuries and giggling on the couch together kind of like hopped up on medication, in this funny state of like this massive thing just happening.
[00:48:01] And I just remember like, reveling in that fascination of wow, this is such a weird thing, something that I've spent so much time being afraid of. And now that it's happened, I'm almost like, well, that was scary, but I think we're gonna be okay. And now that's not, that's not every scenario.
[00:48:17] And I know that. But you know, it what it gave me is The certainty in a way, like these things can happen and, uh, I don't know what we're going to do, but we'll figure it out. I have no control over how it goes. It just happens, but I don't want to not get back on because I love riding and it's really fun and it's a thing that we share together and we have Bluetooth in our helmet.
[00:48:38] So we like talk crap to each other back and forth and sometimes I turn him off and like, it's a fun thing and like, I don't want to not have it. And so I've told that story to clients and they're like, But Vanessa, like, I don't think I could ever get back on again. And I'm like, that's, that's the certainty out of fear that we give ourselves.
[00:48:56] We say that I can't and I'm too fragile. And if that thing is important to you, then we work back to getting to that thing. And we learn to retrust and build that trust again. And that's how we're doing this. Right. And so I use that as a core example, because that was the big thing that happened. And it reminds me that even then we can rebuild trust.
[00:49:16] Right, even then we can rebuild what it means to get back on and I think that kind of stands true for us in so many ways, where there's so many things happening right now that are not okay, and not safe. But we will rebuild trust. I don't know when, or how, or what that's going to look like, or how bad it will get, or what that means, I don't know anything, I just know that we can rebuild that trust.
[00:49:45] Deb: I think that's such a powerful example because I know, I spend a lot of time trying to game what's going to happen and plan for the future. And you know, when it turns out, well, my brain is like, yeah, that was a really good use of your time. And so in some ways that's like a backfire, I'm like, Oh, what else could I, should I be doing with this time besides trying to, you know, orchestrate the entire future?
[00:50:13] So yeah, kind of looking at that mechanistically can be really helpful. And be like, what do we do with our brains? How are we driving them? You know, how are we organizing our relationship to fear? Where I live in New York is close to the water and we were very affected by hurricane Sandy.
[00:50:33] And since I've been back, I've spent a lot of time thinking about where else I should live and when, when should I leave? That's a big theme going on. And then when Asheville, North Carolina had their devastating storm and flood and all of those things, and that was a place that was supposedly safe, that immediately fixed my drama.
[00:50:58] I was like, Oh, right. There is no safe place. Exactly. And I was like, cool, I'll stay here because in the meantime, I'd built a home. Obviously I'm getting a bathroom renovation, like a home that's part of my internal safety work right now is like continuing to invest time and energy into building a home that feels safe, that I feel really joyful and connected and happy in.
[00:51:22] And that one little piece of, what is going to happen in the future with the planet. Yeah. I couldn't know the answer to but my brain kept Insisting that I had to know. Mm hmm. And then that happened and I was I was like, there is nothing to know this house has been here for a hundred years Totally made it through that experience.
[00:51:45] Vanessa: Yep,
[00:51:46] Deb: and we'll all be in it together.
[00:51:48] Vanessa: Yep It's like the same thing that you're saying you're going Oh, that's what happens if this goes on and, uh, during this experience, my significant other had a really, uh, tough orthopedic surgeon that had no bedside manner. And the guy just came in and was like, well, you should have gotten your collarbone worked on in the ER because now I'm just going to have to rebreak it and rod it together.
[00:52:08] And he'd never been in an ambulance, in an emergency room, never had a broken bone, and I have, so I was like, oh yeah, this is normal, but he was not okay with this information, and, and this doctor is just like saying all these really intense things, and my significant other, with all of these injuries, he was like, I was fine before we came in here.
[00:52:28] I was like at a six out of 10. Now I'm like at a 10 out of 10. Why do we keep coming to these appointments? I don't want to keep coming. And I was like, we have to, and we have to know what next steps you're facing. And he was really worried about getting put under anesthesia. He had a bad personal experience in his life and a loss and he was just like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to not wake up. The uncertainty. Right. I was talking to my brother in law, who is an ER doctor. I was like, I don't really know what to say to be helpful here. He's really worried and my brother in law goes, Well, if you want me to get statistical, he was like, honestly, the drive to the hospital, you're more likely to die in the car accident and the drive to the hospital than you are under anesthesia.
[00:53:09] I swear it just floored me and I was like, wait a minute, why do we do these things that are technically, statistically, quite dangerous, but we're so desensitized to them. But when a new threat comes up, we're so focused on controlling it and getting certainty and feeling unsafe until we get certainty.
[00:53:26] And it's just like, whoosh, everything rushes in. But these other things that we do, we don't even think about because we're kind of used to them. It just really highlighted to me, what our brain chooses to focus on in that moment, depending on what's going on. And us not being familiar with navigating this, or it's all too familiar, and we've done this before, and we don't want to have to do it again.
[00:53:49] There's so many different ways in which our brain will hyper focus on that thing that we have to solve in order to be safe, because if we don't, we're unsafe, but actually maybe it's something to listen to. Maybe it's something to ground in. Maybe it's something to gravitate towards. This uncertainty is just taking over.
[00:54:09] So where am I holding this in my body? How can I be more aware of what this actually feels like so that I can rest in the middle of things? It's usually what is currently getting our focus of you're in danger.
[00:54:22] Deb: Yeah, I find sometimes people will say that the symptoms themselves is the thing that's creating the lack of safety.
[00:54:30] Yeah. And I was like, I understand that. And now you've created an unsolvable problem because you can't feel safe until the symptoms go away. And then you can't practice and integrate this work and right, so I'm just like, all right, what is the starting point for people when that is their premise?
[00:54:53] Vanessa: Yeah, well, you labeled it perfectly is essentially like starting with addressing the urgency that we have behind that thing of like, I have to get better now, knowing that that thought reinforces a feeling. Right? A sensation, an emotion that then reinforces a behavior that says, I have to fix this, which then reinforces the thought that you're in danger.
[00:55:16] We're trying to break that cycle, right? Okay. There's the thought, or there is the feeling first that reinforces the thought. What new tool, way of grounding ourselves in the middle of things, can we integrate to catch that cycle as it starts kicking off? All right, can we get off that treadmill that we keep running on in our mind and in our bodies that say there is only one way to do this because the treadmill is running in the same place without getting anywhere.
[00:55:41] And again, this might sound kind of abrupt, but it's just the relationship that I have with some of my clients is being like, it hasn't worked for you. That's why you're here. So we have to get off that treadmill. And I know that that's what we gravitate to because you're human. And again, you're forever going to do that.
[00:55:58] But we have to start recognizing that that does not work for you here. That may work for you in your job. That may work for you in your day to day when you have a lot on your plate. That may work for you when you're navigating difficult relationships or wherever it works for you. But here, with your nervous system and your body, the one thing that you're probably really good at, will not work here.
[00:56:20] And we have to almost like be Like very abruptly honest with ourselves and say, you're right. That's why I'm here because if my usual way of doing things worked, it would have done it already. I have to take the path of kind of like more resistance almost. We always say the path of least resistance. Take the path of least resistance.
[00:56:41] I think that that is actually taking the path of more resistance. So we are auctioning ourselves up to be more uncomfortable. But the first step is always recognizing the way in which you're doing this has not worked. We have to stop. And we have to utilize this as a moment to work with our nervous system instead of against it.
[00:57:03] Your brain is convincing you that there's something to solve. Let's tend to that urgency. Where do you feel that? Let's hang out with that feeling first. Where do you feel the intensity to make this go away? Where do you feel the distress? Where do you feel that resistance? And let's hang out there first.
[00:57:21] Track that. Follow that. Tend to that. And let's see what we find down that path. Our usual rush is to engage, or what I like to say, collude with the thoughts that are keeping us in this intense place. Take a few steps back and notice where you actually feel that in your body first. And let's hang out there.
[00:57:41] And then see if we need to continue that dialogue or what we find.
[00:57:45] Deb: I'm wondering if you can share some examples of chronic pain or conditions that people have resolved in working with you or in this work. I always feel like it's important to name what is possible for people and sometimes like how long people have been in pain and how they recovered no matter how much time has gone by.
[00:58:11] I feel like I can never say that enough. And I then like to invite other people to say that as well, because of course, it's not useful if it only comes from me. I think it's a powerful thing that people can start to anchor into that this work is real, that this work is valid...
[00:58:28] Vanessa: I love it. Yes. I have so many wonderful examples. I mean, to be honest, I've probably seen, I don't know, I'm probably in the three, 400 range of people at this time. And I have a few core examples that I often use. And when I talk about these things out loud, I talk kind of broken and slow just to catch myself from saying, identifying information.
[00:58:49] I talk kind of slow when I mention clients. So the first one is a client that was actually the first person that I worked with here. This person was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis and I did not think that I would be helpful. Um, in fact, I was kind of irritated that that was my first client.
[00:59:12] I remember just being like, what in the actual heck are we? Are you pushing me to do something really unethical or difficult? But, this person now reaches out every now and then to just complain about their spouse and that's about it. Even when I'm asking well, what about pain stuff? They're like, oh no.
[00:59:34] No, that's that's I'm fine I just want to talk about this. Okay, they consider themselves completely symptom free even from The verified diagnosis through imaging that this is what's going on in their body, right, which proves the point of the asymptomatic studies that we have, where people are seen to have imaging exam results.
[00:59:55] where things are showing up based on their age range, but the entirety of the study participants are asymptomatic. Another person that I worked with came in with no childhood trauma, zero, none. And as a therapist, I was like, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with you, like, I don't know, like, give me all the trauma.
[01:00:17] It's cool. Like I can do that. None? I'm like, well, what am I supposed to do? And it was a little mind boggling to me. But this person had just back pain in general, what we usually see in TMS neuroplastic world, right? And we realized that maybe there were some pressures in life that this person did not know how to navigate because they never felt the pressure before and they just wanted to be good, good parent, good in life, like, you know, and didn't know if they were doing enough. And this person within a very short amount of time was able to fully recover and even to this day still reaches out to me to let me know.
[01:01:01] I'm very grateful, I'm doing okay, want to tell you that I still use the tools when my brain is trying to trick me and it helps, it's really such a joy to get those emails like once a year, it's my favorite thing. And then there's another kind of person, a person with typical back pain, imaging, treatments, all the things that we usually see in this work, but with a lot of childhood trauma.
[01:01:22] This person has such a depth of experience that can make it actually feel a little complicated when you're trying to work in these safety messages, right? But again, when you do it in a validating way, meeting this person where they are at, getting to know their full story, why they talk to themselves the way that they do, maybe why they struggle to set healthy boundaries in their life with people that are not safe for them, that are creating more of a felt sense of unease.
[01:01:50] Understanding that story and validating the I am not as fragile as I fear I am, or I am not as fragile as I'm being told that I am. This person is so kind. They actually like are very interactive on my therapy Instagram and I still talk to them every now and then to this day consider themselves recovered, and I even have this beautiful picture that you'll see on my therapy Instagram, where they sent me a picture of all the pain medications that they were going to dispose of, that they hadn't taken in a long time.
[01:02:21] And then, I have another client. Somebody that I work with for a long period of time, we are the same age. So there's like a little bit like relational things and just like, you know, speaking the same language in some ways, which is kind of fun sometimes. And we worked through so many barriers of pelvic floor pain symptoms.
[01:02:39] And this person was really excited to start a family. And during the process of starting a family, our worst case scenario of the major fear of the big C happened. And to be honest, I didn't know how to be helpful, because this was a real thing that's happening, and that is the thing that a lot of people are worried about and want to make sure isn't happening to them. And this person had to go through so many hurdles through parenthood and Treatment and just like everything hypervigilance had to offer was this current experience and all I did was hold space.
[01:03:18] But there was a moment where this person realized they weren't having the significant reaction to their treatment that sent them into anaphylaxis, they weren't having it a second time during their treatment, it was their brain, their brain was like, why are you back here and recognize that we're doing the same things that led to us almost being in a life threatening situation before, and now that they were back in the midst of the big C treatment, This person recognized, Oh my gosh, I am in the middle of the chaos, but my brain is still contributing to thinking that, like, I am going into anaphylaxis again.
[01:03:56] It's not anaphylaxis. It's my brain. My brain is telling me that the thing is happening again. And I know my tools. I know what to gravitate to. And they did. And we still meet to this day. Person is in full remission. Say loving parenthood lightly, feeling parenthood, navigating parenthood, and it's a wonderful, wonderful relationship that we have, and, you know, I see all of these different kinds of people, all of those clients that I mentioned and the clients that I'm currently seeing, a client, that is you know, later in life, and has had pain for decades and grew up with such a felt sense of not being safe that when this person hears the word, I am safe, they just, like, can't connect to it and it feels really difficult, but after us working together for a couple of years, this person has now started to identify that that word may have more explanation to it that will help them digest it a little bit better, which I cannot explain the gratitude that I have, and honestly, feel like I'm scratching an itch in relief to hear this person say, I think I'm getting this, I think I'm understanding what you're saying, I think I understand what needs to happen.
[01:05:06] And I think I understand what I need to change. And it took a while, right? So there's so many different kinds of cases, whether we're dealing with significant childhood trauma, Okay. None at all, whether we're dealing with verifiable things showing up in the body that we know has been a part of imaging, but there is research to say otherwise as to if that needs to be explained through imaging or not. Whether we're dealing with pretty clear neuroplastic cases or ones where the major things are happening, right?
[01:05:37] Everything in between. From fibromyalgia, to migraines, to chronic hives, tinnitus, TMJ, IBS, you name it. I feel like I've worked with those folks and so has my team. It's really quite a beautiful thing to like be in our group supervision and hear everyone bringing up different cases, and one person saying, can you work with this symptom presentation with PRT and everybody working together to figure out how in a way that is like validating and safe, you know, safe, ethically and legally, while also making sure like, you know what, I think that there's still a nervous system component here, because this is where everything comes from.
[01:06:15] There's so many ways in which we can apply this work. And I've just seen it repeated over and over again for every individual unique experience.
[01:06:23] Deb: Thank you. Sometimes I'm confronted with people who like they hear that and they understand it intellectually, like cognitively, and then there's this deeper feeling that somehow that they are an exception.
[01:06:37] Totally. I always validate that, that of course, we feel like because we're the one having the experience. And it's almost impossible to imagine it changing, that somehow we must be fundamentally different than every other human being with a brain and a nervous system and a body on the planet.
[01:06:57] Vanessa: Totally. Yeah. I mean, if they didn't do that, that would be weird. I say that to clients all the time. I'm like, if you didn't think that you were different, I think that'd be kind of weird. Like, I think, I don't know. That's just, that's how I feel. I feel like I'm chronically unique.
[01:07:08] Trust me, having chronic pain is feeling chronically unique. It's you. You are the exception. I was like that when I came into this work too. But as unique as you are as an individual, your symptoms they're not unique in the slightest and everything that you are though that makes you, you is unique to you.
[01:07:26] So I, I'd like to, again, as you said, just really validate that and bring, bring that home, for that person to say, you know, if your brain didn't do that, it would be kind of strange. And your brain is doing that to try to protect you because it's not sure if it wants to put all of its eggs in this basket.
[01:07:41] But if you can just put, like, two eggs in this basket and leave the rest on the other side, I can work with that. That's okay. Right? You can keep the ten, put the two over here, and I will work with that. That's fine. One foot in the door and one foot out is totally okay. Right? As long as we kind of come to this conclusion that, well, I do have a brain.
[01:08:01] So something must be coming from somewhere. Right?
[01:08:06] Deb: I love that. Yeah. It's not the Cartesian model. Oh, want to bring a little bit back to embodying safety in a marginalized body in this moment in time or in whatever moment in time because it's not like suddenly like the inauguration happened and then like the person was like oh hey suddenly there's something going on right totally there have been micro and macro aggressions been going on since before january 20th how can people create That kind of watcher sense that, that ability to, to notice that there's a heightened sense of danger, threat, maybe because of an interpersonal, right?
[01:08:48] You're walking into a store and you get this sense that people are looking at you, help people understand and like tie that to a sensation in their body or a symptom. Maybe they go shopping and it feels very stressful and threatening, right? You're trying to, you're doing a lot of things to maintain safety, maintain your actual physical safety or your emotional safety.
[01:09:09] And then maybe later in the day, you get a headache. And then you just start to think about your migraines or your headaches, and maybe people don't tie those two experiences together. Mm hmm. How can people start to bring this work into those moments when they are in the store? Mm hmm. And are starting to become aware of your nervous system taking good care of you.
[01:09:37] Vanessa: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yep. Well, what you're talking about perfectly is that boundary that I mentioned earlier, that boundary of inquiry. Inquire, whether you ask other people to do it with you and whether you make sure to have a boundary with yourself to inquire. And you're also mentioning the three steps in which we navigate this work.
[01:09:55] Understand, practice, and integrate. You have to understand why you feel what you feel. First and foremost, you have to feel validated, understood, seen. When I feel dysregulated in a public space, this is usually what happens to me. This is how my body feels after. We have to understand that. Take inventory, inquire, what happens to me when I am dysregulated?
[01:10:19] Right? Where does my mind go? What do I think and what do I feel? And practice. Practice on the stakes are lower. I like to give especially marginalized individuals permission to wait until it's actually safe to make space to process. I was at a getaway weekend with a group of people that I don't know very well.
[01:10:39] I only knew 1 person and another person that I like that. I knew I didn't have good interactions with before and I was the only person of color on this weekend away. And so I went in kind of like, Mhm. I was feeling that a little bit, but I was like, Oh, don't be ridiculous. Just be nice and just have fun.
[01:10:56] And it'll be good. Like, I'm not, I'm not, not nice. I just like, you know, I was like, just, you know, don't be so dramatic. And if you're uncomfortable, you can step away and blah, blah, blah. Well, the uncomfortable thing happened. We were like at the table and, um. Everybody was talking about, like, college jokes and, like, things, crazy things that they did in college, and my college experience was a little different.
[01:11:18] I was in, like, a serious relationship and, like, still helping my mom and, like, being a co parent and, like, all the things, so I didn't have, like, the dorms and, the, you know, woo hoo. I was a grown up, um, when I was in college, and so, um, Everyone was talking about their fun, crazy, like, dorm stories, and I wanted to chime in to like, again, be fun, be social, interact a little bit, loosen up, and I shared a story.
[01:11:42] I was like, oh, my gosh, when I was in college, like, I had these crazy house parties, and I, um, you know, was kind of bragging. I wasn't 21, so, um, but I was saying how I, like, made a profit off of these house parties, so I could fund them every time. And, most of the group was like, oh my gosh, that's really smart, but this one person that I hadn't had positive interactions with before said, like shouted over everyone was like, oh my God, you sound like somebody that would have bullied me in high school and my brain stopped and I was like, why did I get that story but nobody else?
[01:12:14] Did and I was like looking around nobody said anything and everybody kind of kept the conversation and kind of even like laughed off the response But I felt like oh I was like gutted and I felt really defeated and I was like kind of tearing up a little bit but I was like just keep talking just keep talking and like and then again, I did it again where I was like, I'm gonna just keep it going and we were talking about something funny and then I shared a silly story with this like person that I had parking in my driveway and I was like, Oh yeah, I have a video on my ring camera.
[01:12:44] I like went off on them because I was like, get out of my driveway. Stop parking in somebody's driveway. And I'm showing the video and this person again was like, why are you so mean? And I was like, Oh God, what is happening? Like, and so I shut down, I went to the room, I called my significant other and I was like crying and, and, and he's very black and white.
[01:13:03] He was like, just leave, just come home. And I was like, I can't. And I was like, my feelings are hurt and I don't know how to navigate this. And then the next day I like woke up before everyone. I went on a run. I came back. I sat down and I heard this person talking about me to somebody else. They were reenacting my statements in a very dramatic way and like doing it in like a mean hearted kind of way.
[01:13:26] And, and I caught it and I was like, why? And I was frustrated with myself. I was frustrated. I was like, why didn't you tell this person to f off? Why didn't you stand up for yourself? Why didn't you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? And I just kind of powered through the rest of the weekend. I talked to a friend and said, like, I'm not doing well.
[01:13:44] And this friend was trying to make it better and was like, do you want me to say something? No, I just I was like frustrated and I'm just let just let me have some space if you see me Disconnect and don't check on me. Like I'm a big girl. I'll figure it out I just wanted to say it so that you're not like, oh, what's wrong with her?
[01:14:01] After the weekend I was at home and I started processing it and I realized oh my god again I'm out of the dangerous situation. So now I can process it I'm at home and I started thinking like that was a full on microaggression multiple times and this person was labeling me as aggressive and mean and dangerous and so I didn't say anything because if I did, I would have been labeled as mean and aggressive and dangerous and so my brain worked so hard to keep me safe.
[01:14:31] It like shut me down. But because I'm such a strong personality, I was beating myself up for not being louder and more, you know, confrontational, but my brain was like, no, girl, this is not safe for you to do that here. You're already being labeled that way. Just be quiet and slow down and take care of yourself and step away.
[01:14:51] And I realized how grateful I was that I didn't say anything and I was so quick to beat myself up for that. But I realized that my nervous system protected me. And so this is why I say we understand, we have to learn. What do I do in difficult situations? What do I feel? How do I tend to react?
[01:15:10] And then we practice. We become more aware of how to take care of ourselves in this way. Usually we practice outside of the danger. Like if you're in the store and something happens, you're probably not going to practice or feel calm until you're completely removed and out and like in your car or back home or whatever it may be.
[01:15:28] And that's okay. But then we learn how to integrate this into our lives by creating more understanding and creating more of a practice, learning how to tend to ourselves, learning about how we tend to respond. And then what I also found is that the person that I do tend to stand up for myself a lot is my partner because he is safe and he's not going to hurt me or leave me or do anything to me.
[01:15:49] And so unfortunately, when somebody is kind of safe, you tend to feel really comfortable telling them to back up, like defend yourself too, you know in the event of an argument. It's an example that, you know, we build certain relationships and we feel comfortable navigating them, and others, our brain does the best that it can to survive.
[01:16:08] We have to understand it, learn about it, inquire, what we do in these moments, practice it when it feels manageable and safe. It's like practicing somatic tracking when the pain is like a 5 out of 10 instead of when it's a 10 out of 10.
[01:16:21] Forfeiting the practice and just going to your soothing behaviors. It's okay if you don't make this work. Go take Tylenol if that's your thing and use your heat pack and just lie down. Like it's okay. You'll figure this out when it feels more manageable. It's really knowing how to meet yourself where you are at and practicing in a way that works for you.
[01:16:39] Deb: I love that. It's so empowering. It's a little bit of the opposite of prescriptive. I mean, it is prescriptive because there are steps and they're clear, but they are only clear kind of through the experience of witnessing. And some people hate that. And I am sorry that we can't tell you, do this and this and this and this.
[01:17:00] And it will be like magic. Totally. But, that is beautiful. Thank you. And thank you for sharing that story. And also, I wish I could insert myself there and tell her to go F off. Um, that's what, that was what it was arising in me. I was like big sister defensiveness. Totally. Don't talk to my friend like that.
[01:17:22] Vanessa: I know that's what my partner do. He was like, just leave. I'm like, I, that's not how I operate. You know, and I love, I love, I love to see. That's you going, well, who in our lives will actually have our back? Like, and yeah, sure they might not have been there, but like, maybe we can lean on them when we're like, this happened.
[01:17:41] Can you help me kind of process it a little bit? And they will, right? They'll be like, Oh, you, you're lucky I wasn't there. But you know, like, it's, it's validating and you feel seen and you're like, okay, right. I'm not crazy. Like that was not okay. And it helps you sparse it out.
[01:17:58] Deb: And sometimes people try to be helpful and it's not landing and we have to, it's helpful if we take ownership in helping those people, those chosen people, like how to love us better, how to support us better.
[01:18:11] Vanessa: Yeah. Absolutely. And
[01:18:13] Deb: That's been a big, strong narrative for me. One of my triggers is around when I don't feel like there's any help. Yeah. But I know that about myself and I shared in a previous podcast, all of the ways that I supported myself around my father's passing, because I knew that one of my triggers is when I feel alone, that I like reached out and intentionally invited people into supporting me.
[01:18:40] And like, and some people were amazing at it. I had a friend who was like, I'm changing my ringtone for you so that anytime you call, I know it's you and I'll pick up. And even just hearing that was unbelievably empowering. And like that felt like a corrective experience for then me feeling even more bold to tell people how they can be in my life, how they can love me, how they can support me. And not everybody's going to do it every single time, but really it shifted me out of feeling kind of helpless into feeling empowered around this thing that I know is, it's the little landmine, you know, a part of who I am and that's okay.
[01:19:26] Vanessa: Absolutely.
[01:19:28] Deb: I'm going to be mindful of our time, actually already over, so I apologize. Okay. How can people find out about you and about your workbook and anything else that you want them to know?
[01:19:40] Vanessa: I understand that social media is not always a place where people feel like they have the healthiest relationships, but, I'm really big on telling people that if you need to revamp your relationship with social media, please follow people that help you feel good about yourself, unfollow all the ones that don't, even family and friends.
[01:19:57] We don't have to stay in touch and stay following, and if somebody has something to say about it, they can reach out. I'm a big advocate for saying follow people that feel good for you, if you want to use social media as a tool. And that's why I use it. I try to use it as a tool, maybe to give some people something good to look at on their feed.
[01:20:16] And the link in my bio is an opportunity for people to just scroll through all the resources, our episode will be on there. It's @that.Therapist. That's my Instagram and I really use it. I'm as communicative as I can be in DMs. If people comment something or ask a question, I'll totally respond and even reaching out to the Pain Psychology Center if somebody finds themselves feeling like they need that person.
[01:20:44] Right? That person that, like, your friend is to you, or that person that, you know, mine are to me when I feel like I'm having a hard time navigating that weekend, or navigating how an uncomfortable moment feels, and unsure of how to navigate the uncertainty.
[01:20:59] The whole point of having this kind of support is so that you build a relationship with somebody that you feel like you can trust and be genuinely honest with, you know, and that can come from our relationships that we build here together with our clients. So whether it's through social media or sending a message, whether it's reaching out for one on one support, the link in my bio, you'll find all of the podcasts and the workbook and really any other events that come up that I feel like are important to share that you can be a part of so many ways in which you can really dive into this information and see if it all works for you.
[01:21:33] Deb: Amazing. Thank you for being here and helping expand this work, and helping people be able to tap into the embodied felt sense of what's possible, right? I love that you had said like language is fluid, right? We're going to find the ways that whatever it is that safety can be for you, even in the smallest, smallest bites, how we can take that, embody that, practice it, integrate it, understand it for ourselves.
[01:22:05] And then cultivate a feeling of safety regardless or along with, I don't want to say regardless. Yes. That's not, that's a fantasy, but along with what is happening in the world and in our lives and with our families. I love also what you said about Cultivating, social media feed that helps you feel good about yourself and I will definitely kind of add on like, yes, let's be cultivating the ways that we're taking in information throughout the day that also kind of shares that same spirit.
[01:22:38] Not in a toxic positivity kind of way, but like we have choice and agency in a lot of these things, what we are shoving into our face and our brain. So let's also be really kind to our brains and our nervous system, like love on them by making really better choices.
[01:22:59] Vanessa: Absolutely.
[01:23:00] Deb: Yeah. Amazing. It's been so delightful talking to you.
[01:23:03] Yes. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye. It's just gonna be the first of many.
[01:23:08] Vanessa: It is. I feel it. I love it so much.
[01:23:11] Deb: Amazing.