This episode is a replay of a conversation I had with Sean Hershey on his podcast, Mind-Body Medicine for Chronic Pain. It was a great way to recap te experience of the talk that I did with colleague Amy Schere. From Sean's perspective our talk created a bit of a stir, but as many of you know, the science is out there about the mental + physical impacts of weight stigma, we're just the first ones to talk about it in relationship with neuroplastic symptoms and recovery. We'll be talking more about the research and materials so stay tuned but enjoy this conversation with Sean. And if you're looking for a therapist, he has room in his practice.
This episode is a replay of a conversation I had with Sean Hershey on his podcast, Mind-Body Medicine for Chronic Pain.
It was a great way to recap te experience of the talk that I did with colleague Amy Schere. From Sean's perspective our talk created a bit of a stir, but as many of you know, the science is out there about the mental + physical impacts of weight stigma, we're just the first ones to talk about it in relationship with neuroplastic symptoms and recovery.
We'll be talking more about the research and materials so stay tuned but enjoy this conversation with Sean. And if you're looking for a therapist, he has room in his practice.
Sean's website: https://www.mindbodymedicineforchronicpain.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/my_gay_therapist/
TCCEP60
[00:00:00] Deb: Welcome to the Curiosity Cure podcast. I'm your host, Deb Malkin, master certified life coach, body worker hypnotist, trained in pain reprocessing by the pain psychology center, queer elder. Fat human on planet Earth. Here to help you evoke the power of simple neuroplasticity techniques rooted in shame free curiosity, so you can feel more, better, more of the time in the body you have today, and build the rich full life that you want to live.
[00:00:39] A quick disclaimer, this podcast is not a replacement for medical care. I am here to provide insights and techniques that can compliment your healthcare journey. But always consult with your healthcare provider for personalized advice.
[00:00:55] Hello my feelers and healers. This is Deb with the Curiosity Cure Podcast. And I'm sharing with you this fabulous conversation that I had with Sean Hershey on his podcast, MINDBODY Medicine for Chronic Pain. About the talk that I gave at the ATNS conference.
[00:01:14] This was a great recap and I don't think I could do any better. So please enjoy, listen to some of the research and conversations that I had at this conference as we're unpacking the role of weight stigma and neuroplastic symptoms and talking about bringing that information into people's awareness so that these clinicians can help support people of all sizes, recover from pain and chronic symptoms.
[00:01:43] So I hope you enjoy. If you are. Looking for a therapist. I know that Sean still has some space open. He's fantastic and please feel free to spread this podcast far and wide. Thanks for listening.
[00:01:59] Sean: Hey everybody and welcome back to the MINDBODY Medicine for Chronic Pain Podcast. This is such a great place to be, right, and here we are together. Thrilled to be here talking with you. Today we have an interview with Deb Malkin, who is, um, awesome. And you'll, she'll, she'll introduce herself. She will explain, she will do all the intro that you need in the interview.
[00:02:36] So I will let her speak for herself. Um, let me just say this briefly before we get to the interview. Deb, um, did a talk at the A TNS conference. Um. Just, uh, which, which was at the end of September, which I was at, which was so amazing. Highly recommend they're having their conference next year in October in Dallas.
[00:02:59] You can go on their website and, um, find out more about it. Highly recommend. So great. A TNS stands for association for for the Treatment of Neuroplastic Symptoms. It's led by Dr. David Clark. And, um, you know, they, they do this neuroplasticity stuff. They do TMS stuff, it all, all the cool kids, uh, go to the at NS conference is, is what, is what I found out this year because it was pretty fucking awesome.
[00:03:30] Um, so Deb Malkin and Amy Sheer, uh, did a presentation together about anti-fat bias and the medical system. And I just wanna share with you before we, before we get into the interview, the, when they did this presentation at the at TNS conference, um, Dr. Becca Kennedy, who's, uh, a leader in this field. She's an md.
[00:03:59] She's, she's on the board of the at TNS. She, I mean, she introduced many of the speakers and she introduced Deb and Amy and she said, starting medical school 25 years ago, a professor said to her incoming class, half of what we're about to teach you is not right and it will need to be updated. We just don't know which half that is yet.
[00:04:26] And then Dr. Kennedy talked about how she, um, looks back and, um. How she really regrets how much she participated in creating fear for people with neuroplastic conditions and fear for people with mind body conditions. In the first part of her career, Becca was that doctor who said things that your doctors have said to you.
[00:04:51] And my doctors have said to me like, and chiropractors and all that, you know, your pain is caused by this or that structural problem in your body. Things like this may never get better. You may never get out of pain and you'll have to learn to manage it. Things like, don't run, don't sit, don't walk, don't lay down, don't do anything.
[00:05:14] She like all medical providers who don't know about this stuff, she was one of those. If you don't know, you don't know. And of course, you know, Dr. Becky Kennedy is not one of those anymore. She is, she, she knows now, just like you and I know now, but then she also said, th this was really beautiful and, and I, I, I thought this was, this was really moving.
[00:05:42] She, Dr. Becky Kennedy also said, as I look back on my early training and my previous dates as a doctor, there's one other thing that I really regret and that's telling so many people that they should lose weight. I was trained to think that, I was trained to advise that, and I was wrong. It was powerful. I mean, you could feel like a chill, go through the crowd.
[00:06:10] It was like I was wrong. Then Deb and Amy did a really nice presentation about anti-fat bias and diet culture and how, you know, anti-fat bias, uh, deeply affects people. How it affects, um, healthcare, how it affects health outcomes, how it impacts obviously the mind body connection and chronic pain. And, um, of course, one of the core themes of this, of, of their talk was that being in a large body, being fat, you know, reclaiming the word fat, being fat does not mean that you must be in pain.
[00:06:56] If someone who is fat or in a large body is in pain, it is not because they are fat or because they're in a large body in the similar fashion that like having back pain is not because of your slipped disc. Having back pain is not because of your mild or moderate scoliosis like I have been diagnosed with, and I thought that was the cause of my hip pain.
[00:07:24] The real causes of chronic pain are obviously emotional and psychological as you know, and as we will get into talking about with Deb. So we have this whole conversation and I, I just wanna say, I, I think this is important to say as, as part of the intro, that the anti-fat bias is so, um, deeply held in the medical system that there was someone who, you know, at the end of their, of Deb and Amy's talk, there's an opportunity to ask questions.
[00:07:49] Someone raises their hand and, and says, uh, and says something along these lines like, but what about. Ozempic, what about the patients who could just, they really need it. They're re they're, they really need the help. They really just need a solution and they just need ozempic and that would really help them and solve the problem.
[00:08:16] What about that? And literally, I mean, I, I, I, I have this, I, I'm, I'm like speechless. I don't, I don't even, I don't even know how to describe it. To see Amy Shear stand in front of the, this big audience in a big, you know, this was the whole, um, everyone was there. This is not a breakout session. This was, this was a session for everyone to see Amy take that question and she answered by saying, it has taken me so much work not to see my weight as a problem or as a disease.
[00:08:55] And then they moved on to the next question. I was like, fuck yo. That was powerful. Whew. Okay. So without further ado, let's talk to Deb Malkin.
[00:09:18] Hello everyone, and welcome back to Mindbody Medicine for Chronic Pain. I am here with an awesome guest, Deb Malkin. Hi. Hi Deb.
[00:09:26] Deb: Hi Sean.
[00:09:27] Sean: So good to see you. And Deb and I, uh, Deb lives in Brooklyn, so we have hung out and not only, uh, hung out around New York, we were together for Nicole's Sachs' book Launch Mind Your Body in February.
[00:09:41] Mm-hmm. And we were, we hung out at the Boulder conference, so, you know, good to see you again.
[00:09:46] Deb: Good to see you too. Where are we going next?
[00:09:48] Sean: I know. Yeah. What, what's, what's our next trip? Uh, you tell me. Um, well, why don't we start by you, um, taking a minute to introduce yourself and for our listeners who aren't familiar with you, tell us, um, who you are, what you do professionally, and if you wanna include anything you do personally, that is awesome too.
[00:10:09] Deb: Cool. Thank you. Um, so I think like a lot of mind-body practitioners, I started out like a patient, um, or a person experiencing chronic or persistent pain. Uh, when I was doing that, I was working as a massage therapist and I was studying kinesiology, so I was studying kind of biomechanics. It was a very biomedical model of the body, um, which I think is one reason why my pain recovery story was so dramatic.
[00:10:45] Um, because. I really shifted my perspective from it's all in the body to, hey, there's this thing called the nervous system, and it's assessing whether there's some kind of threat, uh, emotional or physical. There's like a, whether there's some kind of danger signal going on. So, um, I had a pain recovery story that happened, um, in 2019 around some knee pain, and that resolved itself by taking a walk, um, which is amazing.
[00:11:21] It also came back and then it's like the way that I relate to it now is completely different.
[00:11:26] Sean: Mm-hmm. But
[00:11:27] Deb: that very dramatic. Unlikely scenario, why would your knee pain go away overnight? Um, you know, and I'm a person who lives in a, in a big body, so like, I didn't lose weight. I'm over 50. Like I didn't get younger.
[00:11:46] None of those things changed, and yet my pain changed really dramatically.
[00:11:51] Sean: So, right. Like, no, nothing physical or structural changed. Yeah. But your pain changed a lot. Like
[00:11:56] Deb: what is going on? Yeah. I had to basically pivot and look at everything that I had ever been taught as a massage therapist, and I was continuing and deepening study into the body, and then I was kind of handed this framework, um, and I realized, uh, okay, I don't really know what I, I don't really know what I thought I knew.
[00:12:21] Uh, and maybe everything I believed about pain is not. Actually true. Um, so that, that was my entry point to this work. And I isn't that wild?
[00:12:32] Sean: It just like, everything I believed about pain is not actually true. I hope people listening to this podcast, you know, some people are listening and they're, they're in that space now where they're like, you know, they're just, um, shifting to a new paradigm and this paradigm is the place you wanna be.
[00:12:49] 'cause this is what's really gonna help you. But go on.
[00:12:52] Deb: Yeah. And I, I think for me, like one of my classic kind of TMS traits is that, you know, I'm, I am obsessed with helping people. Um, and so the driver of like helping myself was through this lens of like, oh, if I figure this out, I can help other people.
[00:13:14] Um, which was kind of one of the reasons for having pain actually, because I was in this. Deeply intense, codependent relationship, uh, with, you know, people who didn't know they were in a codependent relationship with me. Right. People, which is possible. Yeah. People were out there just waiting for me to help them.
[00:13:37] Right. And, um, you know, and wanting to kind of serve my community, serve people who, you know, uh, are, are fat or plus-sized who have been dealt kind of a shitty hand, um, from society and from the medical field, you know, so I was really coming through this from this very caring place, but also with a lot of like, you know, am amplification, like, you know, there was a lot of intensity and urgency around, like, wanting to get this right, wanting to be able to help people who weren't being helped in.
[00:14:16] Other arenas. And so when I was doing that through this kind of biomedical, biomechanical lens, um, that was making my own pain flare and feel more intense. Yeah. So once I got this piece, it was so interesting to be able to, uh, start to unpack how the nervous system plays a role in helping us understand what, you know, what we're perceiving.
[00:14:45] Like take all these messages about whatever we've been told about our bodies and it's synthesizes and pro, you know, processes, information into a set of beliefs. And so one of the things that I had hoped I would get to do in training and mind body work as a massage therapist was really help people find that sense of safety in their body, sense of safety and empowerment, helping them.
[00:15:15] Regain a, a feeling that, you know, their bodies were whole and that they could start to trust themselves and then expand into kind of more activity, taking risks and, and creating those like prediction updates for your brain. Like just giving people a new framework, understanding pain through a pain neuroscience lens versus this kind of biomedical, biomechanical lens.
[00:15:49] Mm-hmm. And then, um, life came along a little thing called COVID happened, and there was, I ended up leaving California where I had my massage practice and going to Florida and doing a lot of elder care. And, uh, you know, you couldn't touch people. I couldn't do massage anymore. And so in that time I had, uh.
[00:16:14] Done some training in this work and I was like, well, I guess we're gonna do it online and see how that goes. And it was kind of a big leap to go from mm-hmm. Working with people hands on, um, creating a physiological experience, creating this kind of relaxation experience, uh, in a lovely, quiet, dark room with beautiful music and mm-hmm.
[00:16:38] Sean: Very
[00:16:38] Deb: soothing touch to having to do this, uh, on a screen through hugely.
[00:16:43] Sean: That's a huge leap. It's funny 'cause for a psychotherapist it's a, it's a leap, but not a huge leap for massage therapist. That's a huge leap. Wow. It
[00:16:53] Deb: was a huge leap. It was a huge, it was like there was a loss for me personally, because I was also like co-regulating and having my own experience through Yeah.
[00:17:04] Giving massage.
[00:17:06] Sean: Yeah.
[00:17:06] Deb: But, you know, needs must, life changes, pivots happen. Yeah. You know, the world. Did its thing. Yeah. And so, um, so in that moment I was able to shift and create an online practice and start, um, coaching people and helping people using pain, neuroscience and, and this new understanding about pain and doing everything that I had hoped I would be able to do in person and being able to do that online.
[00:17:37] And so, and that's just continued. So that's what I've been doing for the last five years. Um, and then adding in other modalities, like hypnosis, which to me is one of the closest things to massage, strangely enough.
[00:17:52] Sean: Hmm.
[00:17:53] Deb: I think it has a very, um, somatic and relaxation based approach to it. Mm-hmm. Um, so we can go into kind, you know, we can kind of leave this cognitive world of trying to make meaning and we can go elsewhere.
[00:18:10] Um, so for me it, it really blended well in terms of I
[00:18:15] Sean: love that.
[00:18:15] Deb: Think people shift their perceptions of that's nice, the sensations in their body. And so that's what I do. That was a very long round. It, that's
[00:18:24] Sean: good. We get all the info round
[00:18:26] Deb: about storytelling kind of person. Good. Um, and so I've helped people with all kinds of things.
[00:18:35] Fibromyalgia, migraines, back pain, uh, my own knee pain, other people's, you know, I do a lot of work in musculo with musculoskeletal issues and what I, and, and I also am like a general life coach, so there's always this kind of integration of the body and one's life that is happening concurrently when we're working together on chronic pain.
[00:19:07] Sean: Well, right. Yeah. And, and I mean, it's, it's so cool to, because I know that you kind of, like, you offer, uh, a lot, you are a massage therapist, you are a hypnotherapist, you are a pain coach, and you have a podcast, which if people are interested, it's the Curiosity Cure with Deb Malkin. It's a great podcast. I was on there once as an interview guest.
[00:19:29] You can always check that out. And, um, so you, you, you offer a lot and I, I wanna ask, as long as we're talking about this Yeah. I wanna sit with this for a minute and ask, like, you know, as somebody who has worked from a biomedical model, you know, worked with pain issues around a, you know, using a biomedical model, and now you've transitioned to working with pain issues around, uh, um, you know, neuroplasticity based and mind body nervous system, uh, based, uh, model different results.
[00:20:02] I mean, how, how, how does it compare?
[00:20:05] Deb: Um, well, I think the results really speak for themselves. I think the fact that people can resolve their pain, um, by talking to somebody, uh, through Zoom is pretty powerful. Mm-hmm.
[00:20:24] Sean: Which is
[00:20:24] Deb: not to say that massage can't be helpful, but I think in the moment that I learned this work, once I started to understand, um, the nervous system's role and the brain's role in perpetuating sys symptoms, I stopped trying to fix people's, um, physical problems in massage.
[00:20:45] So there was a little window of time in which I was applying these, uh, ideas and, and, and I even had an inkling about it before because I did massage for almost 10 years and. When I would have clients come in and they would tell me the story of their problem. Mm-hmm. Uh, when I was focused on their problem, they would leave the massage not necessarily feeling better.
[00:21:15] Sean: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:16] Deb: And then over time I realized just focusing on their problem, um, made the problem kind of take up all the space and they weren't actually receiving the benefits of the rest of the magic that massage has to offer.
[00:21:33] Sean: Hmm.
[00:21:34] Deb: And so I would, you know, obviously listen to their complaints, you know, oh, your shoulder or your neck, or whatever it is, you know, and I would listen to the attributions that they were, I slept funny, I did this thing.
[00:21:46] Mm-hmm. Right. And I would just hold it, everybody, you know, unless you're kind of a mind-body practitioner, then you start to talk about, you know, when you woke up with a neck. Pain, you start to talk about it differently. You're not really blaming your pillow. It's really normal for people to want to have an attribution that they can understand for why they're, um, hurting.
[00:22:10] Sean: Right, right. And, and, and I, I want people listening to the podcast to understand like most of these attri attributions are actually not correct because they're physical attributions, which is sure of can you hurt yourself physically, obviously. Sure. But mostly what Deb and I, excuse me, what Deb and I see are, um, you know, patients in chronic pain and the problem is not physical.
[00:22:34] The problem is psychological, but Yes, go on. Yeah.
[00:22:38] Deb: And so I think, I didn't feel when I first started, like, you know, I didn't feel like fully available to talk to people about like. The stressful things that per se were going on in their lives. But I knew that I could give them an hour of experiencing things differently, or 90 minutes of experiencing their bodies differently.
[00:23:02] And so I would ask them, like, at the end of your time, at the end of our time together, how would you like to feel? Like just gimme an idea, like say a word or a phrase of how you would like to feel. And already that's kind of using hypnotic language, which I didn't know that that's what it was. So they would tell me they wanted to feel like a cloud or a a, you know, this sunshine.
[00:23:26] Or they would tell me something That gave me then an idea to hold both in my mind and in my body and try to like imbue through my hands how they would feel at the end of our time.
[00:23:40] Sean: Hmm.
[00:23:41] Deb: And I certainly would give attention to the parts that they were complaining about, but it didn't take up. All of our attention together.
[00:23:51] Sean: Right. I mean, what I'm hearing there is like moving from the lens of danger to the lens of safety and letting that take up space. That's powerful.
[00:24:01] Deb: Yeah. And, and it worked. They would leave feeling great and their complaint, their, you know, the, the, the place of complaint would either feel completely better or it would just be much diminished because Right.
[00:24:15] We're amplifying feelings of safety, feelings of wholeness, and we're decreasing the focus on, you know, what was not feeling well. And then oftentimes it would just resolve itself. And, you know, and I would give some suggestions. Um, but a lot of times the suggestions that I would give would also be like to invite people to not worry so much.
[00:24:41] Yeah. Right. Yeah. But try to say that in a way would just not, you know, diminishing their, their fear. Right.
[00:24:49] Sean: Right.
[00:24:50] Deb: And so that I imagine would be the way that I would've gone on had COVID not kind of pivot me out of my massage practice. But at the same time, like I was studying with Charlie Merrill and Dr.
[00:25:04] Howard s Shuber, who were doing a, a training for practitioners. So, you know, I, I felt like if this information was coming from these very skilled and fine people, um, then, you know, then I could do it. And that, yeah, that was really powerful because also I just felt like for me, when I was doing massage, trying to like go in and fix something and like work really hard at like some muscle attachment point, I had this sense that that wasn't right.
[00:25:39] That that wasn't at least the practice that I wanted to have.
[00:25:43] Sean: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:44] Deb: Um, to like reduce somebody to a body part.
[00:25:47] Sean: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:48] Deb: Into a problem.
[00:25:50] Sean: To hear you say that, it reminds me of what I've heard about Dr. Sarno, who would work on people's patients backs in like, I don't know, the sixties and seventies, and was thinking like, this isn't working.
[00:26:04] We're not getting the results that we want to be getting. Like, this is not right. What's, and, and, and then thinking rather than thinking like, okay, let me just keep doing it. You know? He was like, what's a better way? And it's, it's funny. I, I hear that mirrored in what you're saying. Um, okay. Let, let me, let's get into, um, I wanna talk about, uh, your presentation at the, at NS conference this September.
[00:26:30] Um, you, for, for people listening who were not there, um. Deb and a colleague of ours, Amy Sheer, did a truly amazing presentation on anti-fat bias healthcare and the implications for chronic pain work. So, um, talk to us about that. 'cause there's so much there. So I don't know where you wanna start, but like, let's get into that.
[00:26:58] Deb: Thank you. Um, it started, I am so grateful for, for Amy and the other participants in our working group. So we created, I created a weight stigma neuroplastic symptom working group because I was very sick of kind of being the only person or feeling like I was the only person seeing the, the lens of weight stigma and anti-fat bias, um, and the implications for this work.
[00:27:27] So, and one of my. One of my triggers is feeling alone and, and like not able to, you know, be like partnered with. So I was like, well, I should go find some people to partner with. Uh, and I did so and then we were like, let's see, let's, let's offer a presentation. 'cause we're all experts in this field. Mm-hmm.
[00:27:50] Uh, Amy is both a physical therapist and a psychotherapist. Uh, we also have Dr. Li Lilia Grey, who is a psychotherapist and a physician. And we also have Rachel Goffman, who's a physical therapist. Um, and I've been in, I've been a participant in body liberation and, uh, fat liberation work for the last 20 years.
[00:28:13] So I have a, a deep history of creating spaces around body liberation. I had a plus-size clothing store. I ran events, I worked, created conferences. Like I did a lot of. That was a lot. That was, some of that was my own, like just personal interest life. Um,
[00:28:32] Sean: well, and, and can I but in to ask Yeah. Are you still, um, working on, or is it, uh, finished the, the coffee table book with pictures of the
[00:28:43] Deb: I'm clothing
[00:28:43] Sean: store.
[00:28:44] Deb: Yeah. So I'm still working on it. Awesome. So I'm creating a book about my store Redress, NYC, which was a plus-size vintage and resale clothing store in New York and 2008 to 2011. Um, but that was a home for activism and, and connection and, you know, feeling good about your body through this thing called clothing.
[00:29:08] Sorry. I was like, I worked in plus size fashion for, for like 12 years. Mm-hmm.
[00:29:14] Sean: I, I was just gonna say, it really stood out to me that, um, I forget when you were talking about it, but you said that like all these years later, you still get messages from people. That store was o only open for, I, I don't know.
[00:29:25] I mean, it was open for a few years. It made a massive impact and people still message you to this day about how much that store changed their lives. Right.
[00:29:35] Deb: Absolutely. So I just was like, you know what? I wanna fify it. I wanna turn it into a, a book, something I can, you know, look at and remember and share with people.
[00:29:46] Yeah. Uh, while we all are still have our memories. And also, and also while people, while like younger people can see, you know, what's possible, um, with some creativity, imagination, and maybe a little naivete. Um, what is possible to create Yeah. In the world. So that's my kind of, that's my fall and winter project is to create that book.
[00:30:13] But I, I feel really excited. Because creating the book is part of my own healing work. And my own healing work is always through this MINDBODY lens. So it's really amazing to be able to have these skills, to be able to look back at that time in my life and be able to get the support that I need. And so creating the working group is a part of that healing journey and that legacy, which is to not be the only ones to hold this very real science-backed knowledge, that weight stigma affects our physiology.
[00:30:53] So it was really great to to find collaborators who were like a hundred percent on board. They have deep knowledge in working in health at every size practices. And also, um, and Lilia had a lot of great research for us to look at, and so we were like, let's bring this work to. People who really understand a paradigm shift.
[00:31:19] Sean: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:20] Deb: Um, 'cause there's nobody who's more skilled at that than people who work in neuroplastic symptoms. Right. The entire field is a paradigm shift. So we're asking now people to take this one little component body size and apply that same. Understanding that what we've been told isn't necessarily true.
[00:31:47] Right. And so we, they said yes to us presenting, they gave us, uh, the opportunity to present in, in front of the entire conference.
[00:31:56] Sean: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:57] Deb: An incredible honor.
[00:31:58] Sean: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:00] Deb: And we thought, well, they probably don't know a lot about weight stigma and the mental and physical effects of it. And we can help them draw parallels and also create better practices.
[00:32:14] Sean: Right. Let, let me, let me, uh, but in to say like, I'm sure there are many people, at least some people coming to this podcast who, uh, who, who don't know much about this either, or who are like, caught in it and, and haven't like meta or reflected on it. Yeah. So could you give us some of the basics, you know, for somebody who's coming to this podcast and they're thinking like, um.
[00:32:34] I have pain, I need to lose weight. Mm-hmm. Or even thinking like someone else has pain. They need to lose weight. Just like talk to us about that so we all know what's up.
[00:32:45] Deb: Absolutely. So, um, when we think about pain, we and body size, like they're often correlated together. And one of the things that there are, have been some studies that talk about weight stigma.
[00:33:02] So the experience of weight stigma is experienced by all people. So, and that comes from weight bias, anti-fat bias. And so that type of bias, just as any other bias, is a socially constructed one. It is a bio-psychosocial experience of discrimination and oppression. And it is a. We feel it. So we have a perception that people in larger bodies are less than, that they're lazy, that we're, um, unhealthy.
[00:33:45] Like, you know, we all can come up with a hot list of things that we think about, whether we believe it or not, about people in bigger bodies. Mm-hmm. Like people who are fat.
[00:33:58] Sean: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:58] Deb: So those types of beliefs play a role in our perception of our own bodies and our own self. Um, and there's, there's implicit and explicit bias.
[00:34:13] So like an implicit bias is something that we're unaware of. An explicit bias is like, you know, somebody saying like, I don't wanna date you because you're fat. Um, and so anybody who has. Like an internalized belief sense of weight stigma, right? This internalized feeling inside themselves, regardless of what their body size actually looks like.
[00:34:40] Because what we do know is there are people who live in bodies that are, um, that, that society impacts them because things don't fit, right? Right. So you don't fit in certain chairs and it's difficult to fly on a plane. And so people, only people in those size bodies are affected by those experiences, but we're all affected by, uh, anti-fat bias and weight stigma.
[00:35:09] So,
[00:35:10] Sean: yeah.
[00:35:11] Deb: Um, so one of the studies that we saw was that people with a larger sense of internalized weight stigma had a increased, um, experience of pain. And it, and because we know through, um, neuroplastic symptoms that we know that most of that pain is not because of something actually happening in their bodies, but through this perception, through this neuroception of threat or danger.
[00:35:46] And so we talked in the presentation about threat physiology and how the nervous system, like the nervous system's role in creating a sense of safety through self-protection, alarm systems, things like that. So what happens for people oftentimes are, you know, when you go to the doctor and you complain about back pain or knee pain, you're just often told like, Hey, lose weight.
[00:36:13] Um, which, you know, is not necessarily, uh, easily attainable. Activity. Um, and there's a whole bunch of research in weight science about whether that's even possible long term. Um, and so what we offered was if we take a weight stigma like health at every size informed view of helping people relieve their neuroplastic symptoms, then we will not just tell people to lose weight, but they, we will help them feel like they can resolve their pain by using these MINDBODY methods so that we're not gonna just exclude people of size and anybody who might have kind of fall under this category of should lose weight.
[00:37:10] From doing this work. Mm-hmm. That actually this work is highly relevant. And I told some stories in the presentation about helping people work through their own internalized weight stigma will help them relieve their symptoms.
[00:37:27] Sean: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I was glad
[00:37:27] Deb: for an explanation. I
[00:37:28] Sean: love it. I love it. And I'm sure there are people listening who are like, wow, thank you.
[00:37:33] One thing that I'm thinking is, I'm, I'm probably not gonna quote this exactly right, but I know the intro for your podcast says something like, feel better. Like, I, I wanna help you feel better, more of the time in the body you have now. Mm-hmm. Is that right? What, what is that quote? And talk to us about, um, about that.
[00:37:56] Deb: I dunno what the quote is. I think it's, feel more, better, more of the time in the body you have today. Cool. Um, so. Because we, because we get sold on this tomorrow body, and it's like highly related with diet culture, right? We're so focused on this perfect body that we're, we're waiting to get. If only we could, we would be doing things differently now.
[00:38:25] Mm-hmm. Differently. And all pain recovery work, you can only start with the body that you have today.
[00:38:35] Sean: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:36] Deb: Um, and so I think for me that including that messaging one creates this sense of possibility that people can feel better now. I mean, that was my experience. So I, it's like how could I possibly tell people that that is not possible for them when, you know, I had this very dramatic, um.
[00:38:59] Cessation of pain. Mm-hmm. Uh, in that body that I had, that was the same from one day to the next. Mm-hmm. So I'm like, if, if it worked for me, like I'm not that special. Right. Just like everybody else. So if it worked for me, it's very possible that it works for other people. And I think that, that helping people unwire their unconscious beliefs about what's possible for their body is an essential core feature of the work that I do, and I can't.
[00:39:34] Uh, so, and I'm a very, like, I kind of very straightforward and, uh, not subtle. So that's why the messages are very clear.
[00:39:46] Sean: I love that. I love that. And, and will you, um, well, okay. Let, let's let, let's get into the, the knee pain story in a minute. But first I, I think it's good to, um, acknowledge this the, at the conference, of course, you know, like you said, it's all about challenging the mainstream paradigm and doing something different.
[00:40:08] Um, and of course we know it's something, you know, quote unquote different. It's not new, like people have been doing neuroplasticity work. One could argue like, people have been doing MINDBODY work like millennia. Certainly at least Dr. Sarno has been doing MINDBODY work, uh, for the past several decades. Um, and, and you know, everybody who, who follows his, his method is the same.
[00:40:31] Uh, so, you know, it's a new paradigm. I, no, it's not a new paradigm. It's a different paradigm. I really think that your and Amy's presentation on weight stigma was the. Given the questions people asked afterwards and kind of the reaction that a lot of the medical providers had afterwards, I think it was maybe one of the most challenging to the mainstream paradigm.
[00:40:54] And I, I just wanna, I don't know, I just wanna ask like if you have any thoughts on that.
[00:40:59] Deb: Um, so we anticipated those questions, like we were not surprised, um, because people don't, people really in the, I did a podcast with, with Dr. Grawe and I said, there is something that happens when people think about weight and they lose their, um, critical thinking.
[00:41:24] Sean: Hmm.
[00:41:25] Deb: And that's how deeply powerful diet, culture, and anti-fat bias are embedded in our society.
[00:41:33] Sean: Hmm.
[00:41:34] Deb: Is that we will throw people's health out the window in order to achieve thinness. Yeah. So there is a lot of misinformation in weight science. There's a lot of, and there's so many factors when we factor in capitalism, like the people who are doing the research or the people who are also making the drugs who are also right.
[00:42:03] So there's a lot of like conflict of interest and people's goals are often about making people's bodies smaller. Um, and it's very hard to challenge people. Yeah. On, you know, they just have this very deep belief that it being fat is bad and everybody's goal is, is to. Not be fat. Yeah. And in the meantime, there are fat people living their fabulous lives, doing amazing things.
[00:42:39] And, you know, and we also, one of the things that we wanted say is like, and also it's possible for them to experience less pain or complete cessation of pain, neuroplastic pain and symptoms. So we're, so we weren't surprised that people ask questions that upholded this, the ideas that like, you know, obesity is a metabolic disease, right?
[00:43:07] Because when something is labeled as a disease, then that also un, that enables companies to create, um, remedies for diseases that insurance companies will pay for. Yeah.
[00:43:23] Sean: And
[00:43:24] Deb: all kinds of things. So, you know, it's like fun to walk around the world and have people just look at you and think you're, you have a disease.
[00:43:33] Yeah.
[00:43:33] Sean: Yeah. Not really. Right. Right. But, you know,
[00:43:36] Deb: um, and, and also just like, people just lose their minds and they ask not very well thought out questions. Yeah. They're not really able to hear what they're saying. And, and because there's so much noise in the world that is deeply embedded in diet culture, like I can't even imagine what it would be like to live in a world in which I am not constantly thinking about the size of my stomach or Sure.
[00:44:13] Yeah. Hips or whatever. Yeah. And, and you know, I am a person who like, I. Feels pretty liberated.
[00:44:20] Sean: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it's still
[00:44:22] Deb: a part, constant part of my life. Mm-hmm. So, you know, I think like medical providers, they wanna help people. I totally understand that. Um, but we also, you know, they create a lot of harm.
[00:44:36] And so I think our, our whole presentation was really focused on harm reduction and for the other providers. Like, there was that one doc, well, one, Dr. Kennedy herself apologized for linking. Do you wanna
[00:44:50] Sean: say a little bit about that? 'cause I thought that was really powerful. I
[00:44:53] Deb: thought I was gonna cry right in the beginning of the presentation.
[00:44:58] We knew that she was gonna say that, but really to hear her say, and one given apology for linking, uh, weight and health Yeah. Um, was really powerful. She is, you know, a really important leader in this field. Uh, and in medicine. And for her to be able to stand up there and not make excuses and say that, um, and apologize was, was, you know, I told everybody like, that was a very, you know, powerful and corrective experience for me.
[00:45:33] Um, and which is another reason why I love this community, like this community, um, is one of the places where I experience the most belonging.
[00:45:48] Sean: Hmm.
[00:45:48] Deb: Um, and so really getting to be fully myself and to help people and to know that we're all on the same team. We don't all have to believe everything. Um, but we are like, we understand that our perceptions, um.
[00:46:11] How do I wanna say this? We understand that there's more happening under the hood that is creating our physical experience than just what we've been told. So I think that was the, that was our goal in doing this presentation is like, how do we paint this picture so vividly that people can't think of it any other way, that they can now start to link so closely what we're told about our bodies and our experiences of them, and how we can help people using MINDBODY methods to help people reduce pain.
[00:46:46] And um, there were other doctors in the room who also said like, I don't think we should weigh people.
[00:46:54] Sean: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:55] Deb: And I was just like, whoa,
[00:46:58] Sean: that was
[00:46:58] Deb: a cool thing to hear.
[00:46:59] Sean: Mm-hmm. Right.
[00:47:00] Deb: Because in my work, like, because I work solo, I'm a, you know. Solo practitioner, like I am not often working and collaborating in environments with physicians.
[00:47:12] So it was really powerful to be in that room with a lot of different kinds of providers and there is a whole universe of people who are out there creating best practices in health, at using a health at every size framework. Mm-hmm. So there are plenty of people in all disciplines who are doing that work.
[00:47:32] Mm-hmm. We wanted to bring it into this neuroplastic, um, symptom recovery world. One, because it's the one that we all use also for ourselves and to help our clients. Um, but also, uh, we were just noticing it wasn't really there. Nobody seemed to be, you know, uh, talking about it. So we're like, well, let's do that.
[00:48:01] Sean: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Beautifully said. And I'm, I'm just really relating to, you know, when you're saying like, I can't imagine my life even as a pretty liberated person, you're like, I can't imagine my life without anti-fat bias. It's funny you say that. I just did a podcast last week, was the last one that came out where I was, you know, talking about like, um, homophobia.
[00:48:24] And I was like, I literally can't imagine what my life would be like without homophobia. I can't, I can't imagine it. So I just, I re and I really, I know as also a queer person, I, I, you know, I, I just really relate to what you're saying.
[00:48:38] Deb: Yeah. It's, you know, I told a story at the conference about having foot pain when I was young and thinking that it was about my body size.
[00:48:49] And, and one of the things, looking back now I can see it was about feeling a lot of distress around walking more slowly than other people. In New York City as a chubby person, uh, and noticing. So now I would look at that experience through a different lens, and I have so much compassion for that me, that younger me who just walked around in the world feeling like I had the wrong body.
[00:49:21] That like there was something wrong with me. And I, I honestly remember sitting when I came out, I was at NYU and I was like 19 years old and I was in love with my roommate at college. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Of course, like you do.
[00:49:35] Sean: Right. And I
[00:49:35] Deb: was sitting at a, on a stoop in the West Village crying because I was, you know, queer.
[00:49:44] Sean: Yeah. Being
[00:49:45] Deb: passed left and right by. Gay people. Right. Like the irony, hilarious. Right. It of course's like I was suffering inside of a world that was like, you know, pre predominantly gay.
[00:50:01] Sean: Right. Right.
[00:50:01] Deb: And I couldn't see it. Right. I didn't like, I, I figured it out, but I, in those moments, I could just, that pain of feeling of like feeling rejected by the world.
[00:50:16] Sean: Yeah.
[00:50:17] Deb: Right. That there was this sense of wrongness about who I was, who I loved, what my body looked like. Yeah. And that was a burden that I carried. Mm-hmm. And of course, then it comes out as symptoms,
[00:50:30] Sean: of course. Right? Because you are not safe in the world. It's not safe to be you and danger signals everywhere.
[00:50:38] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, I have to say this because this is just like too, uh, on, on brand. I, I don't think I've ever said this on the podcast before. I used to be, for a brief time a professional tarot reader where I, I would've actually like, take, I would, I made money like tarot cards to people. There is a tarot card That is exactly what you're talking about.
[00:50:59] I think it's the five of Pentacles, if I'm not mistaken. I like, don't, I don't have it all memorized in my head the way I used to. Although they always, I, I did a class with like a literal witch who was like, um, who. It was at a place called Maha Rose in Brooklyn, as in Green Point. Have you ever heard of that?
[00:51:15] Yeah. I feel like you, you're
[00:51:15] Deb: in Maha Rose near me now.
[00:51:17] Sean: Oh, awesome. Okay. I was gonna say, I feel like you'd be in Of course. Of course, of course. But like a, a witch taught this class, like a self-identified witch, and she was like, don't, um, you know, don't memorize the cards, develop a relationship with all the cards.
[00:51:32] So I, I have fallen out of relationship with many of the cards. But I do think that the five of Pentacles, I think that's right. It's three huddled figures outside you, you know, with, uh, with like cloaks on, shivering in the cold, walking from one place to another, desperate. And right behind them is this massive, beautiful stained glass window.
[00:51:56] And, and the idea in the card is like. All you have to do is come inside like you're suffering so much and all you have to do is like chill out and come inside. And it just so spot on. Yeah. Is the experience of crying on a, in the West Village because you're queer?
[00:52:13] Deb: Oh my God. I just look back and I mean, I, it, it feels like a Saturday Night Live sketch sometimes.
[00:52:20] And it was, you know, a hundred percent true and authentic.
[00:52:24] Sean: Right? Right. And
[00:52:26] Deb: it's so poignant, like, and I wish that there had been, well, I wish there had been podcasts. There were no podcasts, there was no internet back then. Wow. Um, I wish that there had been, I mean, I did find like the NYU Women's Center like I did find people, and like that continues to be a true thing for me in my life is like, when you feel so uniquely broken, like, look for, look for your.
[00:52:58] Like look for these other people.
[00:53:00] Sean: Yeah.
[00:53:00] Deb: And, and I kind of wanted to do this presentation at this conference because I think of this world as my people and I wanted to like be even closer. I wanted to bring them into this knowledge that I had and that I was using with my clients that were helping them resolve their pain and symptoms.
[00:53:26] And I didn't wanna be like an outlier. I was like, no, you all can do this too. Right? Like, so if you help your clients understand their internalized anti-fat bias and start to kind of separate that, that kind of pain from their symptoms, then they will be able to resolve. And create more agency and more empowerment and be able to move with more ease, right?
[00:54:02] Mm-hmm. Be able to, so it's like, had I known as a young person that all I really needed to do, of course, it's so simple to say now, is to feel comfortable walking at my pace
[00:54:14] Sean: mm-hmm.
[00:54:15] Deb: And not try to speed up and like, keep up with other people.
[00:54:20] Sean: Mm-hmm.
[00:54:21] Deb: I probably would not have had foot pain.
[00:54:26] Sean: Right, right, right, right.
[00:54:27] Oh, okay. Okay. So let, let's let, let's do that before we're done. Let's definitely get into, um, give, give us a story. We've alluded to the knee pain story. Give us a story to give, you know, to tell people that, and to, to further drive home this message of like, losing weight, quote unquote is not the answer to, um, healing chronic pain.
[00:54:49] Deb: Yeah. So my story was I was having this kind of increasing knee pain, and I was trying to, I was in a biomechanics training, so we were thinking about kind of the alignment of our joints and our bones. So I was constantly kind of scrutinizing or constantly assessing, maybe scrutinizing, uh, is not the right word, but that's kind of what it felt like was trying to assess where the alignment of my bones and my knee pits and my feet.
[00:55:23] So I was doing this scanning process and assessing the, the alignment of these body parts.
[00:55:32] Sean: Mm-hmm.
[00:55:32] Deb: And it, that was supposed to help me resolve pain. And it wasn't, it was actually like inadvertently making it worse because I was always looking at my body through this lens of like, you're not doing it right.
[00:55:48] Um, and I was working full-time as a massage therapist, so I was using my body all the time. Um, and I decided once I had gotten an experience, my friend Susan recovered from migraines using the Curable app, and so Awesome. She told me her story and she's in like a Tech crunch article about Curable. Um, so I, you know, got curable and I also read a Dr.
[00:56:17] Sarno book, so I was like, okay, here's this new understanding. Got it. Like, got the hot take on it. Mm-hmm. And then I was like, I'm gonna go take myself for a safety walk, being between clients. Like, so I walked around in my neighborhood, I was like, I'm gonna go, I actually had my like, neighbor's dog that I was walking and, you know, before this I would've been like, oh my God, I don't wanna take a walk.
[00:56:45] My knee hurts. And, you know, I, I don't. I would be like Right. Limiting the amount of movement. Right. And feeling pretty depressed about it. But instead I was like, here's an opportunity to do something different. Um, so I took this dog for a walk and I called it a safety walk. And I said, I'm gonna talk to my knee and tell it that it's safe.
[00:57:10] I'm gonna like, notice the world around us. I, my neighborhood had like, you know, pretty gardens like, you know, in people's lawns and, you know, front yards. So I was like, okay, we're gonna look around and notice things that are pretty, and the air in Oakland is always like my favorite air. It's like warm.
[00:57:30] Mm-hmm. Warm and cool at the same time. Mm. I know. It's really nice. That's
[00:57:35] Sean: like the opposite of like the shitty New York weather. That sounds really nice.
[00:57:39] Deb: It's like most of the year you're like, why is this weather the best ever? Um, that's
[00:57:44] Sean: great.
[00:57:45] Deb: And so. I and my knee was kind of talking back to me 'cause it was like, I do not, like, you can tell me that I feel that I'm safe, but I do not feel safe.
[00:57:56] And it was kind of more like, I do not feel safe with you. Wow. Like my knee was telling me that it did not feel safe with me because I was looking at it through this lens of it's not, it's not right. It's not doing the right thing. You know, you're supposed to have this perfect alignment and if you have this perfect alignment, then you would not be feeling pain and you can't have this perfect alignment because your body is wrong.
[00:58:25] Sean: Yeah.
[00:58:25] Deb: Right. It doesn't look like your teacher's bodies or your classmates' bodies or whatever else. So it's like there's always this sense of like, you're wrong and you're failing.
[00:58:35] Sean: Mm-hmm.
[00:58:35] Deb: And I was like, oh, okay. My knee is. Scolding me. Sure. And so as I did this walk and I, it was just a very slow and gentle walk.
[00:58:47] I really felt the, the security of the ground underneath my feet. I just was moving my body in kind of, you know, it became kind of rhythmic after a while. So, um, and I just said, I apologized and I was like, I'm gonna do better and we're gonna work together and we're gonna look at it. We're just gonna leave that other shit behind this alignment stuff, and we're gonna.
[00:59:15] Look at it through this lens of making more safety. And so, you know, and it kind of felt like a surly teenager that was like, you know, we'll see. Mm-hmm. Like as if it was like crossing its arms and wearing a hoodie and being a little, but being really skeptical. And I was like, I, I don't blame you. Hmm. I would be skeptical too.
[00:59:38] Um, and throughout the day, having clients, I could tell that I was. Had so many patterns of assessing my alignment. So I would kept interrupting them like I would notice that it was happening. And then, and then kind of be like, we're, but we're not doing that anymore. We're doing this other thing called feeling safe.
[01:00:05] Sean: What, what Good advice. I hope everybody listening heard that we're not doing the old stuff anymore. We're doing this new thing called Feeling safe. Love it. So,
[01:00:13] Deb: you know, and it was helpful that I'm in a room and it's very quiet and there is like a, a, a warm person who like I could just connect with this idea of safety.
[01:00:28] As I was trying to transmit that feeling to my clients, I would also feel it for myself. Mm-hmm. And so it was this beautiful opportunity and I just rinsed and repeated all throughout the day, and by the end of the day. I had a lot less pain, and then by the next morning I had like 90, 95% less pain. And I was just like, then my mind was just like,
[01:00:54] Sean: yeah,
[01:00:54] Deb: it was like exploding and melting out my ears because I was like, what the hell is this?
[01:01:00] Okay. Because I was skeptical. Right, of
[01:01:03] Sean: course. Right. Of course. I was like, why
[01:01:05] Deb: would this be true? Yeah. Even though, you know, why wouldn't it be true? Um,
[01:01:12] Sean: absolutely.
[01:01:12] Deb: So that, that was that very dramatic pivot moment. Um,
[01:01:18] Sean: yeah. What a story, man. What a story. And and of course, you know, for people listening, you, you all know that kind of dramatic shift doesn't happen for everyone, but it does happen.
[01:01:30] I mean, listen to Deb's story. It does happen. Yeah. Um, okay, Deb, any, any final pieces of wisdom or anything you want to leave us with before we are done today?
[01:01:42] Deb: I think. What I always want people to know is that healing is possible for them. Yeah. So that's the most important piece is that, you know, between you and I, Sean and all the people we know, we've heard every single story, uh, of possibility for people to recover from their, from their symptoms.
[01:02:07] And I wanna, um, inspire people, I think, to, to think about healing now in the body that they have today, and that, you know, bodies are adaptable. And so even if you are believing that your body needs to change for you to feel better, um, to just like change that, it's like a bad math equation. Yeah. Um, it's, I think the relationship with your body needs to change for you to feel better.
[01:02:45] Yeah. But your body itself doesn't need to change and then your body will change when you change what you do with it. Yeah. As well, which doesn't necessarily equal losing weight. So it's like, sometimes it's just really useful to, to set that aside and think about if I had the body that I wanted, what would I be doing in my life?
[01:03:10] Mm-hmm. I'd be pursuing relationships or I would be going outside more. I would take that dance class or I would do whatever. And it's like those, all of those things are possible now. Yeah.
[01:03:22] Sean: Yeah. Beautiful advice. All of the things you wanna do once you fill in the blank, all of those things are possible now.
[01:03:30] It's beautiful. Um, okay. Where can people find you? I mean, I, I, I, yeah. Like what are you offering now? Uh, where and where can people find you if they're interested?
[01:03:39] Deb: Yeah, so people can find me at the Curiosity Cure. Um, one, I, I would love more listeners for my podcast. Uh, as you said, it is called The Curiosity Cure.
[01:03:52] I'm check
[01:03:52] Sean: out the podcast. It's, it's awesome. Check it out.
[01:03:55] Deb: Thank you. Uh, I think I do, in my podcast, I like to talk about all of these intersections in kind of social issues. Um, and neuroplasticity. So that's kind of one of the, the places that I like to do work is like talking about. Yeah. How does the, how do politics affect your body?
[01:04:16] Like how does growing up queer affect you? Like how do we find empowerment and, and healing, even if the world is a shit show.
[01:04:25] Sean: I, uh, yes, and I, I like to do the same and I wanna put in a plug for, I I do, you have some really, really great interviews on your podcast, so if people wanna hear, I don't know, just like very interesting conversations.
[01:04:39] Uh, yeah, the Curiosity Cure.
[01:04:41] Deb: Thank you. I,
[01:04:42] Sean: yeah, I, I will gladly vouch for that. Go ahead.
[01:04:45] Deb: And, um, and I'm on Instagram as, uh, pain coach, Deb, and right now I'm working with people one-on-one. There may be some group offerings in the future. Right now I'm taking kinda a little break to work on my book, but, uh, this work is, is definitely my passion, so I'm always gonna be here doing something.
[01:05:09] Sean: Awesome. Awesome. And when the book comes out, let me know because I will, I will totally, um, you know, I can make an announcement on the podcast that you know that your book is out, and if people are interested that they can, uh, they can look for it. So keep me posted.
[01:05:23] Deb: I'll thank you. You'll be invited to the book party.
[01:05:27] Sean: Oh yeah. That'll be great. Can't wait. Can't wait. Okay. Well, and there's
[01:05:33] Deb: two books, actually, sorry. We're also writing a chapter, one of the, one of, besides doing the presentation, which was amazing. At the conference, uh, we have also been invited to write a chapter for the new, uh, book from the at NS. So turn our presentation.
[01:05:51] Let's end on that.
[01:05:52] Sean: Yes. To talk. I, because I, I truly don't know. Talk to us about what, what is the book, the at NS book, when, when can we, uh, look for it to be published and what are you doing for it? And let's end on that.
[01:06:05] Deb: Yeah, that's a great question. I hope that it, I hope that I have permission to talk about it.
[01:06:12] Sean: Oh, may, maybe we shouldn't end on that. May, may. Maybe we just hint at it. Just, just give, just give us the, whatever high level you can do, because
[01:06:20] Deb: I don't have a lot of details. But basically there's a book that's going, being, coming out, that's talking about working with different populations, so challenges.
[01:06:30] Um, so there's a book, uh, on neurodiversity and LGBTQ plus and bipoc, and now like weight stigma. So, and, and just,
[01:06:43] Sean: this is a textbook. The s already gonna be a book
[01:06:46] Deb: for clinicians. Okay. Um, working with clients, I think we're, we're mostly gonna take what we did in the presentation and turn it into a, a book chapter.
[01:06:58] Um. So, and this world.
[01:07:00] Sean: Yeah, this world is just getting more and more built up, more and more sort of shorn up and, um, you are part of it. And so was everybody listening? We're all part of this. Like, we're, we're still early on. One of the things at the, at s conference, Dan Ratner got up and said, like, I, part of me wishes that I was involved with this work, like earlier on from the very beginning.
[01:07:26] But then I come here and I realize like, this is early on and this is the very beginning. And, um, here we all are doing this work. Yeah. So thank you so much, Deb. Thank you so much for coming on and, um, coming on, being part of this podcast. And I will, um, so hopefully I, I, I see you soon. Yeah. And um, yeah. For everybody listening, this has been MINDBODY Medicine for Chronic Pain, and I will talk to you next week.